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on this episode of skeptico

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a show about discernment

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a core tenant of spirituality is the

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kind of discernment okay discernment

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about on a fundamental level of thought

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because for a lot of people that is a

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massive change in their lives to realize

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that their thoughts aren't true

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we really should then be able to carry

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that sense of discernment out of our own

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minds and into the world and say well

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here's what the government is telling me

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true it's it's a thought and in some

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ways i've been indoctrinated into this

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system from birth so

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it's very compelling for that reason but

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i should be able to apply more

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discernment

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conspiracy theory

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is this about me my target here do they

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know me who is that do they know me i

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don't know what you're talking about

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[Music]

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either very smart or incredibly stupid

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i have a really good chat coming up with

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richard cox from deep state

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consciousness podcast and the author of

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the new book contemplating conspiracy

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it's a good one stick around i think

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex scaras

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and today

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we welcome back richard cox

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great great great to have him back

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love this guy you know if you've been

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around skeptico

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we've done a bunch of shows over the

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years

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and uh i really

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ton of respect for him ton of respect

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for his very excellent podcast deep

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state consciousness podcast

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and

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also i got a lot of love for this book

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of his new book contemplating

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conspiracies excursions into undiluted

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madness

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richard welcome back thanks for joining

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me

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thank you batman

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so

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this book is is interesting kind of a

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compilation of

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a lot of interviews you've done i i kind

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of in the back of my mind as i'm reading

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it i'm having a chicken and the egg

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question like

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did you start

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having the concept for the book and then

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do the shows off of that or vice versa

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so

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that's one of the things we'll have to

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get into but we're going to do a deep

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dive into this because there's some

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really interesting topics very

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interesting skeptical topics

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related to this book but start just by

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telling us about the book contemplating

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it comes from

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years ago even being in spiritual groups

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going on a retreat

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and seeing everyone

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get along very well on the friday

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evening and talk with a lot of harmony

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because they've been everyone having

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similar

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perspectives on spirituality on

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meditation on consciousness and it's

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very exciting and enlivening to talk

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about that

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and then around about saturday lunchtime

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politics would come up

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and there'd be some shocked faces

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because there would be this apparent

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division in the room um

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between the more conspiracy minded

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people and the more conventionally

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minded and this was

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not shocking for the conspiracy minded

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but for the conventionally minded

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suddenly they're hearing for the first

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time they've gone to this spiritual

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retreat and they're hearing that 911 was

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an inside job and they certainly didn't

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expect to meet anyone there who wasn't

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fully convicted as to the perils of

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global warming

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and now there are people who seem to be

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incredibly right-wing because that's all

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the scam apparently and seeing

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this division in spirituality and that

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being aware of that for a long time

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and then when covert kicked off it felt

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like that division had a

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a wedge put in it and was just hammered

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where

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the people who were setting not on the

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conspiracy the people on the

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conspiratorial side

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in many cases became more conspiratorial

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um they would say with good reason i

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would be inclined to agree and then the

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people who are very adverse to that

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things and suddenly took on the

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perspective okay this has gone too far

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now it was one thing when it was silly

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theories about this or that but this is

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a pandemic

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it's uh

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that these people are threatening

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the health and well-being of society and

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we need to speak out against it so i saw

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the division become wider

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and

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the book was

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inspired by the

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a lot by the philosophy of paul firearm

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on the idea that we need to shift into

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each other's perspectives on different

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perspectives to

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um be able to communicate and to be able

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to gain a better perspective all over

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perspective on truth so that was the the

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kind of core thing of the book

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yeah oh jeez okay we're going to jump

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right into the skeptico section

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the skeptical part of this show

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because i i kind of challenged that

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right from the beginning that that has

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any chance of working or that that

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really

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gets at the issue and that's not to say

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because like

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you and i have known each other and you

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know i'm kind of a pushy kind of person

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so when i say that that i'm going to

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jump right into the skeptical part you

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get that but i i have to pause for a

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second and say this is

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really really a good book and it's

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really really important some of the

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points that you make and there's some

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kind of

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fantastic things that you've done here i

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love that like exaggerated hangout let's

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say something you coined i think and

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it's such a

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interesting addition to the mix or your

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take on conspiratuality

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is completely unique and new and uh

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wonderful even though you are careful to

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reference

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where that came from you kind of take it

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another direction this is all to say

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i think you've done a fantastic job

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and that is kind of uh gotcha to okay

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now i'm going to be

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skeptical on you but

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in this true sense and this is

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reflective of your book both are true

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both are true the reason i'm excited to

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talk to you is because we can have a

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level three conversation and what you're

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describing in the spiritual

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meetup

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to me the problem i have with it is

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you're making excuses for people who

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can't do a level three conversation and

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to me i'm not that interested in why

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people can't do level three i'm just

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interested in having level three because

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i think that the solutions will come out

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of that i say all that let me give an

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example

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this is episode 391 of skeptico where

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you and i were joined by

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tim freak and i'm the one who kind of

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initiated this you've known tim freak

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for a long time tim is

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you know fantastic guy uh written many

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many important books

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known for kind of the jesus

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myth kind of thing

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but where you and i were pushing him on

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this interview is about

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conspiracy theory let me play the clip

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and then we'll chat about it

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on an issue like global warming uh where

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i do think it's relevant to paradigm is

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you you need a certain depth of

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conspiracy to believe that global

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warming as a conspiracy could emerge out

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of that you need a certain depth the

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deep state that rabbit all needs to go a

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certain way otherwise it doesn't make

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sense so whether it's right or wrong or

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whether you stay there or not you need

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to be able to shift into seeing okay

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this is why people would think this tim

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final words

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well when you said when you invited me

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to take part in this

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discussion and you listed all the things

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you wanted to talk about

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i said to richard wow that's never gonna

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you've taken us on that journey it's

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been a while um i i wonder what people

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will make of being

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part of it and listening to it uh it's

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been wonderful it's been fascinating i

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you know i

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i certainly don't want to give the the

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impression that i think um these views

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are ill-informed or just unintelligent i

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don't but i but i do

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what i i think

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i think the truth is probably what

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richard said earlier which is on every

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side of an argument like this or

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discussion like this there are people

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who are well informed and full things

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through and have reached the conclusion

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for a reason and then there's people who

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haven't

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and inevitably if you are in one side

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it's very easy to see the other people

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on the other side who are the people

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that haven't so

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there is a lot of people i think in the

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conspiracy world who seem

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uninformed to the point of being

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unhinged

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but that's not but i'm sure that's true

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on the other side in every side because

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there's just a lot of people in humanity

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who are ill-informed to the point of

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being unhinged and we shouldn't make

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that blind to us that they can be

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serious points to be made and i think

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richard has functioned very well in in

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bringing that through and as somebody

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who thinks paralogically i think it's

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absolutely imperative to be able to see

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it from these different points of view

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and the place i tend to end up is

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usually it's a bit of all of it

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what are your thoughts re

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experiencing that

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i just like seeing myself with hair but

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apart from that um it's

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that clip was on my mind that exact part

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of the interview i thought that would be

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the part you would play well when you

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brought it up and it was probably on my

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mind when i wrote the book because that

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is

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exactly it that's exactly what i'm

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suggesting that we need to become

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conscious that we have these world views

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so often we're unconscious of them and

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that they influence the way we're seeing

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things

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and they influence the way we see other

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people so

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the the undilutedness

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specifically on what on his traditional

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global warming or his um

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he's wrong on all of them so you can

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just kind of pick your take your pick

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but to me it's the classic classic

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it's it goes back in my opinion richard

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to

285
00:10:16,310 --> 00:10:13,440
what i was poking you at at the

286
00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:16,320
beginning like oh if we can understand

287
00:10:21,910 --> 00:10:19,360
the other person then maybe we can find

288
00:10:23,509 --> 00:10:21,920
this common ground and our paradigms

289
00:10:25,670 --> 00:10:23,519
will merge no

290
00:10:28,230 --> 00:10:25,680
tim freak isn't going to change his

291
00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:28,240
position on global warming because he's

292
00:10:32,710 --> 00:10:29,040
not

293
00:10:35,190 --> 00:10:32,720
willing to engage with the data to him

294
00:10:35,990 --> 00:10:35,200
it's an illogical

295
00:10:38,870 --> 00:10:36,000
uh

296
00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:38,880
ill-informed right ill-informed and that

297
00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:40,880
he kind of throws out these platitudes

298
00:10:44,470 --> 00:10:42,399
that i guess everyone could be

299
00:10:47,509 --> 00:10:44,480
ill-informed [\h__\h] that tim

300
00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:47,519
let's get down and dirty with the data

301
00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:51,040
look at judith curry and global sea

302
00:10:56,870 --> 00:10:54,640
level rise dig into the data at that

303
00:10:59,430 --> 00:10:56,880
level and let's have that discussion but

304
00:11:03,269 --> 00:10:59,440
otherwise [\h__\h] your opinion it doesn't

305
00:11:05,910 --> 00:11:03,279
it doesn't it it isn't relevant

306
00:11:07,509 --> 00:11:05,920
no i don't that's not that's exactly why

307
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:07,519
the way i don't see it okay because i

308
00:11:13,269 --> 00:11:10,320
think you're coming in on the level off

309
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:13,279
discussing data with an unawareness of

310
00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:15,360
the paradigm so you can discuss data but

311
00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:16,560
if you're trying to

312
00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:18,720
change one's mind have them see your

313
00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:20,480
point of view a different point of view

314
00:11:25,269 --> 00:11:23,760
i don't think the data is going to be as

315
00:11:27,269 --> 00:11:25,279
effective as pointing out the

316
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:27,279
underpinning of data the thing data is

317
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:30,240
arising in so this kind of is almost

318
00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:32,800
jumping us like four we're kind of all

319
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:35,680
over the place which i love it's awesome

320
00:11:38,790 --> 00:11:36,959
one of the things we'd have to talk

321
00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:38,800
about is

322
00:11:44,069 --> 00:11:41,360
what is the goal and what does it mean

323
00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:44,079
to be effective is that the goal i don't

324
00:11:49,509 --> 00:11:46,560
know that that's the goal is to kind of

325
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:49,519
one by one win over people like uh tim

326
00:11:53,430 --> 00:11:51,600
freak or you know i always have rick

327
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:53,440
archer from boot at the cast bump on

328
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:54,720
this and he's just

329
00:11:59,509 --> 00:11:56,720
he i've done so many shows with me he

330
00:12:01,590 --> 00:11:59,519
just fails miserably you know time after

331
00:12:04,150 --> 00:12:01,600
time i'm like global warming you know he

332
00:12:06,470 --> 00:12:04,160
started with the 97 consensus and he had

333
00:12:08,389 --> 00:12:06,480
to totally concede on that okay yes

334
00:12:11,269 --> 00:12:08,399
you've shown me the data i realize it's

335
00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:11,279
classical movement yes yeah and then and

336
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:13,279
then i said so does that change your

337
00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:14,320
opinion

338
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:16,000
and he goes no

339
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:19,040
no so it's like this is like

340
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:20,800
when you say classic skeptico this is

341
00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:23,680
back skeptical long time ago when

342
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:25,120
you know i was talking to and you were

343
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:26,560
right there we're talking to skeptics

344
00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:28,720
you know and it's like okay

345
00:12:32,790 --> 00:12:31,120
what evidence would convince you okay

346
00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:32,800
here's that evidence has it convinced

347
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:34,800
you no yeah so because they're they're

348
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:36,000
talking the materials paradigm they're

349
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:37,680
either disingenuous

350
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:39,040
or they're stuck in a materialist

351
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:41,519
paradigm and then when you get into that

352
00:12:44,949 --> 00:12:43,519
you're so engrossed in the material

353
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:44,959
function of the brain and how you can

354
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:46,560
point to neurons firing to give rise to

355
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:47,760
memory then you hear about this

356
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:49,440
near-death experience sort of well

357
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:51,360
someone must have made a mistake

358
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:53,600
somewhere because we've almost exactly

359
00:12:56,710 --> 00:12:55,200
nailed down what consciousness is on a

360
00:12:59,350 --> 00:12:56,720
physical level and i can see how people

361
00:13:01,269 --> 00:12:59,360
who are staring like when i wrote like a

362
00:13:03,509 --> 00:13:01,279
paper on how we look at consciousness

363
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:03,519
and that forced me to look much more

364
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:05,600
through a materialist lens and look at

365
00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:07,440
how are these guys seeing it and by the

366
00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:09,200
end of it i have more sympathy for you i

367
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:10,720
understand why they're dismissive of all

368
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:12,480
this psy stuff now i don't think that's

369
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:15,200
ultimately good enough but the way i

370
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:16,560
would think to approach that with them

371
00:13:19,829 --> 00:13:17,600
is that look

372
00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:19,839
you're standing in a particular paradigm

373
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:21,600
and if you're going to understand at all

374
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:23,920
why people find these these ideas of

375
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:25,360
near-death experience compelling you're

376
00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:26,480
going to need to shift it's not you

377
00:13:30,790 --> 00:13:29,120
can't get it from where you are now and

378
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:30,800
is that going to be effective or is that

379
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:32,639
the goal i don't think it's not the goal

380
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:33,920
right i don't think anyone wants to

381
00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:35,760
communicate worse and have worse

382
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:37,279
interactions with people of differing

383
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:39,519
opinions it might not succeed it might

384
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:41,279
be like another thing that that

385
00:13:45,269 --> 00:13:43,440
ultimately fails but i think it's a much

386
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:45,279
better approach at

387
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:46,800
pointing out where

388
00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:48,880
these divisions are arising

389
00:13:53,750 --> 00:13:51,760
i think we want to be descriptive

390
00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:53,760
rather than perscriptive

391
00:13:59,829 --> 00:13:56,720
so the strength of your book is where it

392
00:14:02,150 --> 00:13:59,839
describes the phenomena and like when

393
00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:02,160
you talk to when you were speaking right

394
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:04,320
there with tim the point that i thought

395
00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:06,320
you made that was so

396
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,600
really salient and he just couldn't get

397
00:14:13,509 --> 00:14:11,360
it at all and as a matter of fact if you

398
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:13,519
read his body language he not only

399
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,160
couldn't get it but he was pushing so

400
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:18,240
strongly against it without saying a

401
00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:20,160
word and that was

402
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:22,959
depth you have to have a certain depth

403
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:25,760
of knowledge of conspiracy

404
00:14:29,829 --> 00:14:28,079
that's what your point was so do you

405
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:29,839
want to speak to that a little bit and

406
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,760
maybe also the prescriptive versus

407
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:33,839
descriptive if you know what i mean

408
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:35,760
yeah well this is the thing that hit me

409
00:14:40,230 --> 00:14:38,160
when it was about 2005 and i was

410
00:14:41,670 --> 00:14:40,240
thinking of philosophy class and we were

411
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:41,680
talking about with my teacher about like

412
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:44,320
mystics like douglas harding and how

413
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:45,600
when you really think that the guy that

414
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,800
points and uh notices he just his thing

415
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:50,320
was he just have a face when you point

416
00:14:53,509 --> 00:14:51,760
in you just you you're aware of a field

417
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:53,519
of awareness arising in which all the

418
00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:54,399
people

419
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:56,720
manifest but i encounter you as having a

420
00:15:00,069 --> 00:14:58,320
face but and now look at myself on the

421
00:15:02,470 --> 00:15:00,079
screen and this person talking but

422
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:02,480
that's not how i experienced myself so

423
00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:03,920
that was really interesting to me hey we

424
00:15:07,189 --> 00:15:06,000
don't nobody ever experiences me the way

425
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:07,199
i experience myself and i don't

426
00:15:12,230 --> 00:15:09,760
experience them the way they experience

427
00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:12,240
themselves and then i became very

428
00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:13,760
interested in a philosophy called paul

429
00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:15,760
fire oven who

430
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:17,920
to me it was just a drop for mike moment

431
00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:19,120
where he pointed out how people are

432
00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:20,880
occupying these different intellectual

433
00:15:25,269 --> 00:15:23,519
paradigms and therefore seeing the world

434
00:15:26,389 --> 00:15:25,279
in different ways and for me that just

435
00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:26,399
changed everything about the way i

436
00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:28,240
thought about things and he advocated a

437
00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:29,920
kind of pluralism

438
00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:31,360
up until that point i'd thought the way

439
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:32,480
you approach learning something is you

440
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:34,240
get the one right idea and you run with

441
00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:35,519
it as far as you can and that will take

442
00:15:39,910 --> 00:15:38,160
you to truth and then

443
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:39,920
with a lot of the things we look at

444
00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:41,680
whether it's the materialism idealism

445
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:43,360
debate whether it's

446
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:46,399
what's going on in the world beyond the

447
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:48,399
really highly documented narrative who's

448
00:15:51,269 --> 00:15:49,680
pulling the strings or what's pulling

449
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:51,279
the string at a deeper level these

450
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:55,040
things are so complex that we can't just

451
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:56,399
get there through further study

452
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:58,079
necessarily we maybe need to occupy

453
00:16:02,230 --> 00:15:59,440
different perspectives on it so we're

454
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:02,240
looking at it from different angles and

455
00:16:06,670 --> 00:16:03,920
not necessarily condense that down to

456
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:06,680
one but maintain a polarity of

457
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:09,120
approaches so that's what i'm

458
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:10,079
kind of

459
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:12,240
the prescriptive if you like

460
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:13,839
let me just make sure i'm not kind of

461
00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:16,320
trying to be obtuse here for no reason

462
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:18,240
to me the descriptive

463
00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:21,040
is you laying out the playing field as

464
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:23,920
you do in this book and you say okay

465
00:16:27,910 --> 00:16:25,920
you've been conditioned to think that

466
00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:27,920
conspiracy theory and again we gotta hit

467
00:16:32,310 --> 00:16:30,240
on that in a minute but that conspiracy

468
00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:32,320
theories are wacky

469
00:16:36,069 --> 00:16:33,920
what i hear you telling people is what

470
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:36,079
you don't realize is you already fully

471
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:39,199
embraced the idea so if i was to tell

472
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:40,000
you

473
00:16:43,269 --> 00:16:41,040
that

474
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:43,279
the united states central intelligence

475
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:44,720
department and other intelligence

476
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:47,360
agencies were instrumental in the

477
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:50,480
overthrowing of iran and you wouldn't

478
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:52,639
object to that i would show you the data

479
00:16:57,030 --> 00:16:54,480
and you would just be oh okay

480
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:57,040
that to me is descriptive you would

481
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,320
describe to someone how they are not

482
00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:02,160
fully accounting for what they already

483
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:04,240
know and that is that that is

484
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:06,160
conspiratorial that is

485
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:08,400
even though it's understood it is not

486
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:11,039
part of the official narrative of who we

487
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:14,079
are as americans what we do how how our

488
00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:15,839
role in the world is

489
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:17,839
do you want to comment on that well yeah

490
00:17:21,110 --> 00:17:18,959
i mean the fascinating thing about the

491
00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:21,120
conspiracy to me is how open it is right

492
00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:24,160
so on one level i'm saying that we can

493
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:25,600
respect each other's views see each

494
00:17:29,669 --> 00:17:28,160
other's positions meet common ground

495
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:29,679
with all these different people and on

496
00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:31,679
another level in the book i'm saying and

497
00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:33,520
in addition to that we actually

498
00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:35,280
absolutely know that the world is like

499
00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:36,880
this and not like that there are things

500
00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:38,080
we can say

501
00:17:41,669 --> 00:17:40,160
definitively we can't necessarily say

502
00:17:42,549 --> 00:17:41,679
definitively about the really deep

503
00:17:44,789 --> 00:17:42,559
levels

504
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:44,799
of who's really pulling the strings is

505
00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:46,080
anyone pulling these things does it go

506
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:48,000
off to the lower fourth dimension okay

507
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:50,480
that that's great for a conversation but

508
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:52,880
we can say what happened in iran in 1953

509
00:17:58,789 --> 00:17:55,200
we can say what happened in guatemala in

510
00:17:59,590 --> 00:17:58,799
1955 and this notion that when you talk

511
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:59,600
to people who are kind of

512
00:18:03,510 --> 00:18:01,440
anti-conspiracy they'll often throw the

513
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:03,520
bone of saying some conspiracies are

514
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:05,600
true okay and

515
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:07,679
that's i think an incorrect statement

516
00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:09,600
okay it's like saying sometimes the

517
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:11,760
mafia engages in crime it implies that

518
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:13,520
the mafia is a legitimate business

519
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:16,000
organization that occasionally sometimes

520
00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:18,240
the security services might get mixed up

521
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,520
a bit of protection racket but that's

522
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:21,360
not it misunderstands the nature of the

523
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:24,480
mob and what we live in with the state

524
00:18:29,830 --> 00:18:26,240
and just i'm referring to to the u.s

525
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:29,840
stakes is the current global empire um

526
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:31,520
it is a criminal conspiracy it's not

527
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:33,039
that it sometimes does criminal things

528
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:35,840
but it's mostly about running um health

529
00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:38,480
and social progress and sending foreign

530
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:40,400
aid across the world it's a criminal

531
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:42,480
conspiracy to project power

532
00:18:48,870 --> 00:18:46,080
to project an ideology of dominance and

533
00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:48,880
to support corporations spreading across

534
00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:51,440
the globe um so

535
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:53,520
and i demonstrate that by i just machine

536
00:18:58,630 --> 00:18:56,240
gun really examples of i think there's

537
00:18:59,830 --> 00:18:58,640
about 70 uh foreign interventions that

538
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:59,840
have documented me taking place in

539
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:01,280
government overthrow since world war ii

540
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:04,400
so i go through a chunk of them and the

541
00:19:07,110 --> 00:19:05,760
the reference i make to wikipedia is i

542
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:07,120
don't actually reference wikipedia i

543
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:08,400
reference people at william bloom and

544
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:11,039
john philippe i say look you can get all

545
00:19:15,029 --> 00:19:13,520
this on wikipedia it's like in your face

546
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:15,039
it's in the open it's it's not it's not

547
00:19:18,230 --> 00:19:16,559
a secret that the mafia is criminal

548
00:19:21,029 --> 00:19:18,240
organization and it's not a secret that

549
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:21,039
the us government is also so

550
00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:23,120
that part of the argument that's dawn

551
00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:25,520
right that's established on that david

552
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:28,799
ike 100 correct alex jones 100 correct

553
00:19:32,470 --> 00:19:29,600
you can

554
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:32,480
stuff the other thing all this deeper

555
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:34,320
level of stuff you can say it doesn't go

556
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:35,919
back hundreds of years and there's no

557
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:38,080
consistency over that time period the

558
00:19:41,669 --> 00:19:39,360
the queen isn't the shape-shifting

559
00:19:43,510 --> 00:19:41,679
reptilian that whatever kind of crazy

560
00:19:45,750 --> 00:19:43,520
things alex jones come out with but on

561
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:45,760
the basic point they are far more

562
00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:49,679
correct than cnn fox news the bbc any of

563
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:50,799
them

564
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,039
so then that that's the lead that's the

565
00:19:57,350 --> 00:19:55,200
descriptive let's not bury the lead

566
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:57,360
let's not have a conversation with tim

567
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:59,600
freak where we say gee tim we really

568
00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:01,600
want you in this conversation because

569
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:03,039
maybe you have something important to

570
00:20:06,149 --> 00:20:04,960
say i think what we're really saying

571
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:06,159
what i'm really saying i'm not going to

572
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:07,919
put words in your mouth is

573
00:20:12,789 --> 00:20:10,400
tim until you can cross

574
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:12,799
this little chasm here it's not hard but

575
00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:14,880
you have to jump it you have to get into

576
00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:17,440
that as you described it the depth of

577
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:20,480
that and fully understand that paradigm

578
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:22,000
we're not going to have a meaningful

579
00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:23,679
discussion we're going to have the kind

580
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:25,840
of discussion that tim engaged with at

581
00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:27,840
the end of that you know which i just

582
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:29,360
i find so

583
00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:31,600
just tiresome you know

584
00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:33,679
well i just can't

585
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:36,080
thank you enough for the wonderful

586
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:39,440
conversation and i get that everyone has

587
00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:41,280
an opinion and everyone's opinion

588
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:42,320
matters

589
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:46,320
no your opinion doesn't matter until you

590
00:20:51,230 --> 00:20:49,440
embrace this thing that that richard

591
00:20:54,549 --> 00:20:51,240
just said is

592
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:54,559
categorically true provable

593
00:20:58,470 --> 00:20:57,200
in a way that we just can't step past

594
00:21:01,110 --> 00:20:58,480
step over

595
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:01,120
yeah there's directionality to

596
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:02,640
truth

597
00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:04,559
so yeah i'm questioning myself now when

598
00:21:06,870 --> 00:21:06,000
i'm when i'm saying that to the two of

599
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:06,880
you

600
00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:09,360
am i criticizing tim

601
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:11,280
more than you am i suggesting that tim

602
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:13,200
needs to do more moving than you do

603
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:16,000
because i am more agreement with your

604
00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:18,000
position i think i'm suggesting to you

605
00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:20,080
when i'm saying that stuff that

606
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:21,520
more facts more

607
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:23,760
um papers by judith curry are not going

608
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:25,600
to be an effective strategy for

609
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,760
communication because there's a paradigm

610
00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:29,200
so i'm sort of precising a level of

611
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:31,440
communication not so content and i

612
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:34,080
suppose i'm i'm more saying to tim

613
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:35,280
and there is a different way of seeing

614
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:36,960
the world because i think you people in

615
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:39,039
the conspiratorial paradigm get that

616
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:40,080
yeah of course you can take a more

617
00:21:43,590 --> 00:21:41,760
conventional view in the world we were

618
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:43,600
all kind of born into that and if you're

619
00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:45,520
a conspiracy theorist on any level or a

620
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:47,440
conspiracy realistic level you've

621
00:21:50,870 --> 00:21:49,120
stepped out of the norm you've made a

622
00:21:51,909 --> 00:21:50,880
paradigm shift at some point in your

623
00:21:53,830 --> 00:21:51,919
life so

624
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:53,840
that could be yeah a fair thing i'm

625
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:55,600
suggesting to tim and i like that

626
00:22:00,870 --> 00:21:58,559
there's a paradigm shift to be made

627
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:00,880
okay another clip here goes then we'll

628
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:03,280
talk about it

629
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:04,960
here's a guy interviewed uh just a

630
00:22:10,470 --> 00:22:07,039
little while back skeptico

631
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:10,480
525 name is scott shea and i always make

632
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:13,200
the point of saying that scott is

633
00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:15,440
probably a billionaire or at least close

634
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:17,039
to being a billionaire and he started

635
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:19,600
this bank and a super successful guy and

636
00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:21,280
i always say that because i think it's

637
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:22,799
super great

638
00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:25,520
that uh here's a guy who's engaging

639
00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:26,400
doesn't

640
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:27,679
have any

641
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:30,880
financial need to do it but he does it

642
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:33,760
but here's the point that relates more

643
00:22:39,029 --> 00:22:36,799
to our discussion oh and i should add

644
00:22:40,789 --> 00:22:39,039
so scott shea came to skeptico because

645
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:40,799
he had written a book

646
00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:43,440
about conspiracy theories and the

647
00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:46,240
dangers of conspiracy theories

648
00:22:50,789 --> 00:22:48,000
as they relate to

649
00:22:53,669 --> 00:22:50,799
anti-semitic anti-zionism

650
00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:53,679
and stuff like that and he gives some

651
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:54,480
very

652
00:22:58,470 --> 00:22:56,159
solid

653
00:23:01,669 --> 00:22:58,480
examples i really pushed him and he

654
00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:01,679
pushed back wonderfully in that you know

655
00:23:05,909 --> 00:23:04,240
there's some wacky conspiracy theories

656
00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:05,919
at his alma mater northwestern

657
00:23:09,669 --> 00:23:07,760
university by this tenured professor you

658
00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:09,679
know like the the jews are up there in

659
00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:12,080
space shooting down lasers and all over

660
00:23:15,669 --> 00:23:13,600
those crazy stuff along with the

661
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:15,679
holocaust denier stuff which is also

662
00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:16,480
just

663
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:18,480
i think fall can fall into the category

664
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:21,200
of a wacky conspiracy theory are you

665
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:24,240
aware of the modern origin of the term

666
00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:27,120
conspiracy theory

667
00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:30,960
no i read jordan joven uh bryford and um

668
00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:32,640
kasim who wrote about conspiracy

669
00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:34,640
theories yeah they don't they don't talk

670
00:23:39,350 --> 00:23:36,960
about it it's directly from a document

671
00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:39,360
that was released through a foia request

672
00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:40,880
i think the new york times initiated the

673
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:43,520
fourier request in 76 or something like

674
00:23:49,269 --> 00:23:45,679
that the title of the document this is

675
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:49,279
cia concerning criticism of the warren

676
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:51,760
report and was drafted in 67 it was

677
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:53,679
about jfk

678
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:56,400
and it was to all the media outlets back

679
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,799
then you remember the day media outlets

680
00:24:02,230 --> 00:24:00,240
you could kind of count the ones that

681
00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:02,240
really mattered all of them were told

682
00:24:07,669 --> 00:24:04,799
but do not veer from the story of lee

683
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:07,679
harvey oswald known lone nut assassin

684
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,600
and then they introduced this term

685
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:11,760
conspiracy theorists as a pejorative

686
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:14,080
term and used that to kind of

687
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:15,840
characterize all these people

688
00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:17,520
now the upside of that a lot of people

689
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:20,640
don't realize that in 1978 the house

690
00:24:26,310 --> 00:24:23,279
select committee on assassinations

691
00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:26,320
concluded that jfk was probably a

692
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:28,720
conspiracy and they're using that softly

693
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:31,120
they proved pretty conclusively from the

694
00:24:35,669 --> 00:24:33,600
evidence that it was a conspiracy so the

695
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:35,679
official position

696
00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:37,679
of the united states government is that

697
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:40,000
jfk was a conspiracy

698
00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:41,840
the real question is why does dan rather

699
00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:42,880
go on

700
00:24:48,549 --> 00:24:46,640
i can't show you the zabruder film

701
00:24:52,149 --> 00:24:48,559
because it's too gory but you can

702
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:52,159
clearly see that his head falls forward

703
00:24:56,549 --> 00:24:53,919
when we all know now that we've seen it

704
00:24:58,830 --> 00:24:56,559
that that's a lie

705
00:25:01,669 --> 00:24:58,840
the second shot the third total

706
00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:01,679
shot hit the president's head

707
00:25:06,549 --> 00:25:04,400
he said to be seen to move finally

708
00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:06,559
forward

709
00:25:12,549 --> 00:25:08,640
here's my point

710
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:12,559
not all conspiracy theories are bad and

711
00:25:15,909 --> 00:25:14,559
i'm a little bit concerned the way you

712
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:15,919
kind of

713
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:18,080
are you falling for

714
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:21,760
part of the game that is in conspiracy

715
00:25:26,549 --> 00:25:24,240
theories by only focusing on the silly

716
00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:26,559
ones whether they're silly ones directed

717
00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:29,039
at the group that you care about or the

718
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:32,240
silly ones you know in general

719
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:38,549
yeah so i wanted to address both sides

720
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:41,679
of the coin in the book and

721
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:43,360
not just say okay well what we all need

722
00:25:47,909 --> 00:25:45,360
to do is make this paradigm shift into a

723
00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:47,919
more conspiratorial vision of the world

724
00:25:51,909 --> 00:25:49,520
and this is something where i have to

725
00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:54,470
in the perspective i occupy i'm always

726
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:55,600
meeting people who are less

727
00:25:59,269 --> 00:25:57,600
conspiratorial than i am okay so i'm

728
00:26:01,350 --> 00:25:59,279
always encouraging them to have a more

729
00:26:03,269 --> 00:26:01,360
conspiratorial vision if you like by

730
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:03,279
conspiratorial i mean

731
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:05,120
the kind of thing we talk about with the

732
00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:08,159
the us government being a

733
00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:10,960
organized crime not like the flat earth

734
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:12,080
um

735
00:26:14,070 --> 00:26:12,880
and

736
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:14,080
this would be something that's true just

737
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:15,279
going back to tim that he would

738
00:26:19,269 --> 00:26:17,600
encounter people i think who sometimes

739
00:26:21,669 --> 00:26:19,279
were into the more kind of

740
00:26:23,190 --> 00:26:21,679
fantastical conspiracy i would maybe see

741
00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:23,200
a parallel with that with the kind of

742
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:26,480
fantastical spirituality so i think it

743
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:27,760
is

744
00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:29,840
a concern that when people realize

745
00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:30,880
everything they thought they knew about

746
00:26:34,070 --> 00:26:32,240
the world is wrong

747
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:34,080
that they can start sliding down down

748
00:26:38,070 --> 00:26:35,840
that rabbit hole and they

749
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:38,080
fall and fall and fall until their feet

750
00:26:40,710 --> 00:26:39,600
land on the flat earth

751
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:40,720
because

752
00:26:44,789 --> 00:26:43,039
it's not necessarily obvious where to

753
00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:44,799
stop and this is where i see the

754
00:26:48,149 --> 00:26:46,720
parallels to

755
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:48,159
spiritual awakening when you find out

756
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,600
everything you knew about your essential

757
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:51,600
nature and consciousness is wrong people

758
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:52,400
then

759
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:53,600
often become

760
00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:56,000
ripe to be victimized by cults because

761
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:57,440
here's somebody with an explanation what

762
00:27:02,230 --> 00:26:59,200
it is and i think that that's a parallel

763
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:02,240
there within conspiracy culture that

764
00:27:06,149 --> 00:27:04,320
something happens you find out that your

765
00:27:08,149 --> 00:27:06,159
belief in motherlode is wrong and that

766
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:08,159
the explanations come up from kind of

767
00:27:11,669 --> 00:27:10,080
conspiracy chords that can you can

768
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:11,679
really pull people

769
00:27:14,549 --> 00:27:13,520
far far far down a rabbit hole i don't

770
00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:14,559
agree

771
00:27:18,830 --> 00:27:17,440
right and i think it's it it's again the

772
00:27:22,070 --> 00:27:18,840
matter of uh

773
00:27:25,190 --> 00:27:22,080
descriptive versus prescriptive all we

774
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:25,200
can really do is just describe

775
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:28,880
as you do in the book the instances of

776
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:30,240
conspiracy

777
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:33,200
and then uh and redefine i think we have

778
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:35,440
to first

779
00:27:40,149 --> 00:27:37,600
we have to

780
00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:40,159
regain recapture

781
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:42,880
that term conspiracy because in all of

782
00:27:47,830 --> 00:27:45,520
these examples that we're talking about

783
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:47,840
we're not really talking about a

784
00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:49,760
conspiracy or i should say we're rarely

785
00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:52,000
talking about a conspiracy what we're

786
00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:54,320
talking about is just good old

787
00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:56,080
understanding of history or

788
00:27:59,750 --> 00:27:57,679
understanding of science or

789
00:28:02,389 --> 00:27:59,760
understanding of

790
00:28:03,909 --> 00:28:02,399
archaeology so in the case that we're

791
00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:03,919
just playing with scotch a and i was

792
00:28:08,710 --> 00:28:06,480
talking about jfk

793
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:08,720
there's there's kind of multiple layers

794
00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:10,720
but the first layer is

795
00:28:15,669 --> 00:28:13,679
is conspiracy theory

796
00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:15,679
a conspiracy

797
00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:20,799
provided the documentation for it i said

798
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:22,720
here's a foia request

799
00:28:26,310 --> 00:28:24,960
here's the previously classified

800
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:26,320
document

801
00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:28,960
that was sent to all the media outlets

802
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:31,440
that told them to characterize this

803
00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:34,880
information in a certain way in order to

804
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:37,039
change people's opinion so this is a

805
00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:40,480
case where the facts the truth

806
00:28:44,789 --> 00:28:42,000
through the foia request published in

807
00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:44,799
the new york times reveals a conspiracy

808
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:46,720
but in other cases in most of the cases

809
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:49,600
that we care about whether it's 911 or

810
00:28:54,389 --> 00:28:51,840
whether it's jfk or whether it's the

811
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:54,399
pandemic the covid thing

812
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:56,159
what we're doing is we're pointing at

813
00:29:02,789 --> 00:29:00,240
certain data so in jfk the fact that the

814
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:02,799
magic bullet can't change course in

815
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:05,600
midair and veer this way in that way and

816
00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:08,240
come out unscathed is like something

817
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:09,679
that we could apply

818
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:12,240
science to you know forensic science and

819
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:14,159
physics and all these other things and

820
00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:16,960
we could come to that there's nothing

821
00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:19,600
quote unquote conspiratorial

822
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,960
about that science it just upsets a

823
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:24,399
certain

824
00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:25,760
site

825
00:29:29,029 --> 00:29:27,360
it's really all these are what we're

826
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:29,039
talking about in every case almost is a

827
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:30,320
psyop

828
00:29:33,590 --> 00:29:31,679
and that's what we should call them we

829
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,600
shouldn't call them conspiracy theories

830
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:35,360
we should call them like

831
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:38,480
a counter measure against psyops because

832
00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:40,080
that's what i think we're really talking

833
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:42,000
about what do you think yeah i'm like i

834
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:43,600
can't ignore that role they play that

835
00:29:47,909 --> 00:29:46,480
this was striking to me that conspiracy

836
00:29:49,269 --> 00:29:47,919
theory

837
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:49,279
on the one hand is something that

838
00:29:52,789 --> 00:29:50,880
shatters people's realities and opens up

839
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:52,799
to a new way of seeing the world and on

840
00:29:56,630 --> 00:29:55,440
the other it's employed as a weapon to

841
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:56,640
short down

842
00:30:02,149 --> 00:29:59,039
that re-seeing of the world so

843
00:30:04,710 --> 00:30:02,159
i gave the example of whenever fox or

844
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:04,720
cnn msmc have someone on to talk about

845
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:06,000
or feel the need to have someone to talk

846
00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:07,679
about address 911 conspiracy they'll

847
00:30:10,389 --> 00:30:08,720
always get someone who's really far down

848
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:10,399
the spectrum like the plane's a

849
00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:11,520
holograms

850
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:13,760
person okay um and they'll never have a

851
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:16,080
guest star to talk about the cia

852
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:17,840
protecting the hijackers when they were

853
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:21,039
in the country from arrest by the fbi so

854
00:30:25,430 --> 00:30:23,600
yeah i agree it's a weaponized term i

855
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:25,440
think what i wanted to point to in the

856
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:27,360
book was the complexity of you can't

857
00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:29,120
really point to it as being

858
00:30:33,269 --> 00:30:31,440
one thing because i know again another

859
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:33,279
parallel i notice with spirituality is

860
00:30:37,029 --> 00:30:35,039
that when i would meet people who are

861
00:30:38,789 --> 00:30:37,039
into adviser dante or zen buddhism would

862
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:38,799
have been like doing kind of arduous

863
00:30:42,389 --> 00:30:40,320
introspection on their own consciousness

864
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:42,399
for a decade or more sometimes you're

865
00:30:46,389 --> 00:30:44,000
asking the question of how did you get

866
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:46,399
in to all this stuff and they'll they'll

867
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:48,240
go a bit red in the face look a bit shy

868
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:50,960
and there'll be some story about angel

869
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:53,440
crystal reiki chakra hearing that went

870
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:54,240
on

871
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:55,440
in the youth and something that they

872
00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:56,320
perhaps

873
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:57,760
wouldn't feel comfortable associating

874
00:31:01,269 --> 00:30:59,679
with now and

875
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:01,279
there's a parallel in conspiracy that a

876
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:04,080
lot of very erudite researchers i know

877
00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:05,760
when you ask them how they get into it

878
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:07,440
they look a bit embarrassed and it's

879
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:09,120
something about energy weapons taking

880
00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:10,720
the twin towers down whether the virtual

881
00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:11,919
advice of that something they firmly

882
00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:13,760
reject now so i looked at something like

883
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:15,360
the flat earth movement and thought i

884
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:18,080
wonder what the trajectory of people who

885
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:20,000
get caught up in flat earth will be and

886
00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:21,760
i imagine most people will just move on

887
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:22,960
from it and go up living very

888
00:31:27,190 --> 00:31:24,640
conventional lives some people remain in

889
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:27,200
it but there will be some people in it

890
00:31:32,549 --> 00:31:30,240
who transition into becoming quite

891
00:31:35,110 --> 00:31:32,559
interesting geopolitical researchers

892
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:35,120
after having this crazy start so it's as

893
00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:36,720
if both spirituality and conspiracy

894
00:31:42,149 --> 00:31:39,279
theory they both have crazy initiation

895
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:42,159
myths to pull someone out of there

896
00:31:53,669 --> 00:31:49,430
you know i'm not buying it

897
00:31:54,950 --> 00:31:53,679
and and i i almost think that

898
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:54,960
it it there's somewhat of a

899
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:56,320
contradiction

900
00:31:59,750 --> 00:31:58,000
with your book

901
00:32:01,669 --> 00:31:59,760
in what you're saying because i think

902
00:32:03,269 --> 00:32:01,679
what you're the ground that your book

903
00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:03,279
lays out

904
00:32:06,029 --> 00:32:04,720
especially if we look at like the

905
00:32:09,350 --> 00:32:06,039
chapter on

906
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:09,360
conspiracy you know this kind of

907
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:10,720
crossover that you're talking about

908
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:14,880
between conspiracy and spirituality

909
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:18,159
i think it forces our hand on the

910
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:21,200
uh stuff that we have talked about so

911
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:22,880
many times in the past as it has to do

912
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:25,440
with consciousness because the full

913
00:32:31,590 --> 00:32:28,960
implications for consciousness which you

914
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:31,600
again i i have to digress here for just

915
00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:33,200
a second again

916
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:34,640
richard is another one who is nice

917
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:37,360
enough to complete the skeptical survey

918
00:32:41,909 --> 00:32:39,679
that i sent him and with his permission

919
00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:41,919
i'm going to publish it in the skeptical

920
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:43,200
forum because

921
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:45,440
it's just about my favorite one ever

922
00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:47,440
that anyone has ever done

923
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:50,159
it's fantastic and

924
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:53,039
all the answers are great and he gives

925
00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:54,960
added you know other answers where he

926
00:32:58,630 --> 00:32:57,200
added stuff so we'll get them on the

927
00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:58,640
we'll publish it on the forum and then

928
00:33:02,470 --> 00:33:00,399
we'll get them on the forum to talk more

929
00:33:05,029 --> 00:33:02,480
about that

930
00:33:06,789 --> 00:33:05,039
but my point is

931
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:06,799
i feel like

932
00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:07,919
you're

933
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:13,120
that consciousness kind of in a way

934
00:33:17,590 --> 00:33:15,840
throws all this out out the window

935
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:17,600
spirituality is what i really want to

936
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:20,000
say i say consciousness for people who

937
00:33:23,029 --> 00:33:20,960
are

938
00:33:25,509 --> 00:33:23,039
atheistically leaning and can't really

939
00:33:28,470 --> 00:33:25,519
deal with it god

940
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:28,480
god throws all of this stuff out the

941
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:31,039
window right god doesn't really care

942
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:33,360
about 9 11 in any way that we can

943
00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:35,840
discern just like god doesn't seem to

944
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:37,600
care about tsunamis or any of the rest

945
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:38,480
of that stuff

946
00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:39,360
it just

947
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:43,200
i mean i kind of say that as a as like a

948
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:45,360
that's how the evidence falls we don't

949
00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:47,519
see any evidence that there is that and

950
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:48,799
that's been the source of a lot of

951
00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:51,039
people's frustration with their belief

952
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:53,519
in god but the deeper part of it is it

953
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:56,320
must be something more than that so i

954
00:34:01,990 --> 00:33:58,240
think what you're trying to do in this

955
00:34:05,029 --> 00:34:02,000
book and you do it very successfully is

956
00:34:08,869 --> 00:34:05,039
kind of describe to us what it's like to

957
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:08,879
live in two worlds to have one foot in a

958
00:34:13,190 --> 00:34:10,800
world where

959
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:13,200
9 11 was an inside job that's just where

960
00:34:18,629 --> 00:34:15,440
all the evidence points sorry

961
00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:18,639
and another foot in a world that says

962
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:23,119
that consciousness the divinity god is

963
00:34:26,950 --> 00:34:25,200
always in play and we're leading these

964
00:34:30,069 --> 00:34:26,960
rich spiritual lives and we're trying to

965
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,079
figure out our path through that and

966
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:32,639
we're not sure how these two worlds

967
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:35,760
join or if they join at all but in an

968
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:38,639
attempt to describe as best we can

969
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:39,760
what the

970
00:34:45,990 --> 00:34:43,919
ground is we have to describe both

971
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:46,000
am i missing the point

972
00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:47,440
i think that's true do i do that in the

973
00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:48,800
book do i do you think i bring

974
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:50,720
spirituality that much into it

975
00:34:54,629 --> 00:34:53,280
well not in a bad way i think in in a

976
00:34:56,310 --> 00:34:54,639
great way

977
00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:56,320
yes i mean i

978
00:35:02,550 --> 00:34:59,280
richard i mean who else is talking about

979
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:02,560
non-duality in the conspiracy world do

980
00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:04,640
you realize what a what an

981
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:06,800
outlier you are right from the beginning

982
00:35:09,990 --> 00:35:08,640
because you have that awareness and you

983
00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:10,000
bring that do you don't think that oh

984
00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:11,839
yeah no i do i do talk about i mean i

985
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:12,560
i'm

986
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:14,160
always i think that the question you

987
00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:16,000
started our last interview it was what

988
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:17,599
what the heck is the connection between

989
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:20,240
911 deep spirituality and i think my

990
00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:21,280
answer well

991
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:22,480
i don't know it's a good question isn't

992
00:35:26,069 --> 00:35:23,760
it is there it could be nothing it could

993
00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:26,079
be like everything um

994
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:28,800
so i make the connections between

995
00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:31,359
how i think stepping into

996
00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:32,079
the

997
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:33,440
nonduality

998
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:35,280
stepping into self-inquiry has has

999
00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:37,760
paralleled a step into the geopolitical

1000
00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:39,280
and that there are strong connections

1001
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:45,430
one is mirrored the other for me and i

1002
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:47,119
think for all the people who look at

1003
00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:49,040
both spirituality and the world in a

1004
00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:52,079
very different way i also propose that

1005
00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:53,839
their spirituality is

1006
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:55,040
mirroring the way they look at the world

1007
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:56,240
too

1008
00:36:01,670 --> 00:35:58,880
so i don't know that we have anything to

1009
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:01,680
disagree with there except that i i

1010
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:03,920
guess what i'm saying is

1011
00:36:08,470 --> 00:36:06,480
i think you are so much

1012
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:08,480
coming from that that maybe it comes

1013
00:36:12,069 --> 00:36:09,920
through in ways that you don't even

1014
00:36:14,790 --> 00:36:12,079
realize in that you are coming at it

1015
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:14,800
from a spiritual first perspective

1016
00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:16,240
and then you're

1017
00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:18,000
reflecting that back into the

1018
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:20,480
conspiratorial stuff and i just think

1019
00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:22,480
the largest part of our audience out

1020
00:36:26,710 --> 00:36:25,280
there and by that i just mean

1021
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:26,720
you know there's the whole audience and

1022
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:28,160
it's mostly normies and then there's

1023
00:36:32,750 --> 00:36:30,480
this sub audience that is

1024
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:32,760
open to this conspiracy

1025
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:34,880
conspiratorial paradigm

1026
00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:36,640
they are not coming at it from their

1027
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:38,480
perspective from that perspective

1028
00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:40,480
they're coming at it fundamentally from

1029
00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:44,000
a materialist perspective you know from

1030
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:46,720
how did the building's fall perspective

1031
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:49,280
and that's why you and i had a wonderful

1032
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,560
discussion about the spirituality link

1033
00:36:56,310 --> 00:36:54,480
between 911 but i don't think most

1034
00:36:58,230 --> 00:36:56,320
people got that i mean it was for

1035
00:36:59,910 --> 00:36:58,240
multiples like well what are you even

1036
00:37:02,470 --> 00:36:59,920
talking about so i think that's just in

1037
00:37:03,990 --> 00:37:02,480
your bones because of who you are in

1038
00:37:05,430 --> 00:37:04,000
your experience

1039
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:05,440
not for most people no i don't think

1040
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:07,440
they're coming at that

1041
00:37:11,829 --> 00:37:08,960
right well i think there's a couple of

1042
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:11,839
levels so on one level i'm thinking that

1043
00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:14,400
spirituality should affect the way you

1044
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:15,680
see the world like

1045
00:37:19,030 --> 00:37:17,520
a core tenant of spirituality is the

1046
00:37:21,349 --> 00:37:19,040
kind of discernment okay discernment

1047
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:21,359
about on a fundamental level of thought

1048
00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:23,520
like because for a lot of people that is

1049
00:37:26,870 --> 00:37:25,040
a massive change in their lives to

1050
00:37:28,390 --> 00:37:26,880
realize that their thoughts aren't true

1051
00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:28,400
and they can step back and have a sense

1052
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:30,160
of separation from thought and say oh

1053
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:31,920
they're arising and they're arising in

1054
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:34,160
something deeper that is me and i can

1055
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:36,160
question like that's a thought but is it

1056
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:37,200
is it true i have that sense of

1057
00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:39,440
separation from it and that

1058
00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:41,119
we really should then be able to carry

1059
00:37:46,230 --> 00:37:44,160
that sense of discernment out of our own

1060
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:46,240
minds and into the world and say well

1061
00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:47,440
it's what the government is telling me

1062
00:37:51,349 --> 00:37:49,520
true it's it's a thought and in some

1063
00:37:53,589 --> 00:37:51,359
ways i've been indoctrinated into this

1064
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,599
system from birth so

1065
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:55,440
it's very compelling for that reason but

1066
00:37:59,349 --> 00:37:57,599
i should be able to apply more

1067
00:38:01,750 --> 00:37:59,359
discernment to that so

1068
00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:01,760
in in that way um spirituality i think

1069
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:03,200
speaks to my

1070
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:05,760
approach to all these things and also

1071
00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:07,680
on the sense if i should be able to i

1072
00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:09,280
think spirituality

1073
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:10,640
you know really should involve some

1074
00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:12,640
ability to see all the people's points

1075
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:13,839
of view if you're just locked in your

1076
00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:14,880
own all the time i don't think that

1077
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:15,920
that's great

1078
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:17,200
and then

1079
00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:18,800
it's more challenging when we step into

1080
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:20,480
kind of like a spiritual meaning to

1081
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:21,440
these

1082
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:24,079
kind of events i think

1083
00:38:27,829 --> 00:38:26,000
i think that is absolutely a brilliant

1084
00:38:29,430 --> 00:38:27,839
point and it's one that i hadn't really

1085
00:38:32,710 --> 00:38:29,440
thought through and as soon as you said

1086
00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:32,720
it i was like whoa that is

1087
00:38:37,349 --> 00:38:35,200
a total shift in everything what i heard

1088
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:37,359
you say is that

1089
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:40,960
the real core of your spirituality and

1090
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:43,680
my spirituality immediately confronts

1091
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:45,680
what we understand as the conspiratorial

1092
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:48,400
aspect but would probably be better

1093
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:51,920
characterized as the paradigm shift

1094
00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:54,720
thing and like you say kind of the

1095
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:57,760
non-dual your thoughts are not who you

1096
00:39:02,069 --> 00:38:59,599
are you are more than the chatter in

1097
00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:02,079
your brain and the parallels that you

1098
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:04,079
immediately draw that hey

1099
00:39:08,230 --> 00:39:06,160
for the average person who encounters

1100
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:08,240
that and fully embraces it it is the

1101
00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:11,040
same kind of process of saying

1102
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:13,680
the pandemic wasn't real as a weapon you

1103
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:17,520
know it wasn't what they said uh

1104
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,760
parallels all over the place and i think

1105
00:39:23,349 --> 00:39:21,359
that's that's great

1106
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:23,359
uh again i don't think most people are

1107
00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:25,359
are coming at it from that way which

1108
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:28,240
makes what you're doing like enormously

1109
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:30,400
valuable because you're doing it

1110
00:39:34,630 --> 00:39:32,160
the other point of that that i would

1111
00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:34,640
then ask you to kind of jump into

1112
00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:36,160
because again you jump into this in the

1113
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:37,680
book and maybe you don't see it maybe

1114
00:39:41,510 --> 00:39:39,760
i'll be maybe maybe i'm wrong but i'm

1115
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:41,520
kind of poking at it

1116
00:39:47,510 --> 00:39:43,839
the second aspect of that is that i

1117
00:39:50,950 --> 00:39:47,520
think people in that process then also

1118
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:50,960
encounter or re-experience

1119
00:39:55,190 --> 00:39:54,000
their their wisdom tradition history

1120
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:55,200
right

1121
00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:57,520
i was brought up catholic i know what it

1122
00:40:01,270 --> 00:40:00,160
is oh i'm muslim i know what all this

1123
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:01,280
stuff is

1124
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:03,040
and again there's that same transition

1125
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,800
right it was that same paradigm crashing

1126
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:06,000
where it's like

1127
00:40:11,109 --> 00:40:07,280
whoa

1128
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:11,119
it's not oh uh uh isn't that again

1129
00:40:13,670 --> 00:40:12,400
and it's very different from the first

1130
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:13,680
one you said because the first one is

1131
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:16,079
totally internal right the total

1132
00:40:20,309 --> 00:40:18,640
internal my thoughts kind of thing and

1133
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:20,319
the other one is kind of

1134
00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:23,520
internal external kind of mixed

1135
00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:25,200
what do you think

1136
00:40:28,470 --> 00:40:26,640
well just to finish up on the last point

1137
00:40:30,790 --> 00:40:28,480
i think a big underpinning for me of a

1138
00:40:33,510 --> 00:40:30,800
kind of psycho spiritual approach to

1139
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:33,520
one's own mind is to see things as

1140
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:36,960
arising for a reason okay so and and

1141
00:40:41,109 --> 00:40:38,960
even things to be quite negative in the

1142
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:41,119
psyche and that we can't just cut away

1143
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:43,359
and throw out our shadows the bad bits

1144
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:44,319
the things you don't like inside

1145
00:40:47,829 --> 00:40:46,000
ourselves and

1146
00:40:50,230 --> 00:40:47,839
our psyche is an interconnected

1147
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:50,240
interdependent whole and we have if if

1148
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:51,440
there's something we're really not happy

1149
00:40:55,750 --> 00:40:53,520
with it might be self-depreciating

1150
00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:55,760
thought in some form or other we have to

1151
00:40:58,950 --> 00:40:57,119
go into the underpinning of why they're

1152
00:41:02,150 --> 00:40:58,960
there and unravel and integrate rather

1153
00:41:04,630 --> 00:41:02,160
than cut and shed and that approach just

1154
00:41:06,470 --> 00:41:04,640
carries the external world so when i see

1155
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:06,480
something like either extreme resistance

1156
00:41:11,109 --> 00:41:08,640
to conspiracy theory or the flat earth

1157
00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:11,119
movement arising i have to i've just

1158
00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:12,960
taken the flat earth exam i've had to

1159
00:41:15,910 --> 00:41:14,240
question me

1160
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:15,920
why is that arising

1161
00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:17,599
why would people gravitate towards that

1162
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:19,200
and not this and you can say okay it's

1163
00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:21,920
it's a scio maybe it is but there's a

1164
00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:24,000
pulled towards that and it's clearly

1165
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:25,920
that that is something people are that

1166
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:27,599
is the thing people are hungering for

1167
00:41:32,069 --> 00:41:30,079
not saying more aerodyne research on 911

1168
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:32,079
or something so if we're going to move

1169
00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:33,760
through that we have to look at it as a

1170
00:41:37,349 --> 00:41:35,599
process of integration as we would if we

1171
00:41:39,430 --> 00:41:37,359
were integrating something within our

1172
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:39,440
own psyches and so that that was an

1173
00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:41,359
important kind of underpinning to carry

1174
00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:43,040
the kind of wisdom of the

1175
00:41:46,550 --> 00:41:45,680
psycho spiritual approach into looking

1176
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:46,560
at

1177
00:41:50,069 --> 00:41:48,400
into a more like external

1178
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:50,079
interpersonal environment let me

1179
00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:52,400
interject because i'm not totally with

1180
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:54,240
you on that i kind of have a different

1181
00:41:58,309 --> 00:41:56,560
perspective tell me what you think about

1182
00:42:00,390 --> 00:41:58,319
what i was saying that you're doing in

1183
00:42:03,109 --> 00:42:00,400
the book in terms of that's another

1184
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:03,119
paradigm shift paradigm destruction

1185
00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:05,040
uh moment for a lot of people who are on

1186
00:42:08,550 --> 00:42:06,880
the spiritual journey is to realize that

1187
00:42:10,710 --> 00:42:08,560
their wisdom tradition

1188
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:10,720
is is an op

1189
00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:13,280
well as in well i'm not quite sure okay

1190
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:16,000
so richard here's what i was kind of

1191
00:42:21,109 --> 00:42:18,240
referring to and again folks this is

1192
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:21,119
from the book contemplating conspiracy

1193
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:24,640
excursions into undiluted madness

1194
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:26,640
quick read it's more of a singlet kind

1195
00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:29,040
of book less than 100 pages but it's

1196
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:31,119
excellent you can pick it up

1197
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:34,240
very very affordably on amazon we've

1198
00:42:37,430 --> 00:42:35,680
already shown that page and we'll maybe

1199
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:37,440
show it again here's a quote from the

1200
00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:39,359
book that relates to i think to the

1201
00:42:42,470 --> 00:42:41,359
religion part we're talking about

1202
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:42,480
you write

1203
00:42:49,349 --> 00:42:46,240
all major long-standing world religions

1204
00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:49,359
made this sacrifice to some degree they

1205
00:42:56,710 --> 00:42:53,040
exchanged essence for manifestation

1206
00:42:59,190 --> 00:42:56,720
the spiritual for the temporal yeah so

1207
00:43:00,630 --> 00:42:59,200
what i'm doing is i'm going against i

1208
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:00,640
suppose a lot of my

1209
00:43:05,750 --> 00:43:03,520
long-held perspectives that the

1210
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:05,760
i'm looking at the role of literalism

1211
00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:07,040
okay so

1212
00:43:11,030 --> 00:43:08,880
for me looking at

1213
00:43:13,829 --> 00:43:11,040
religion there's a a movement to get

1214
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:13,839
away from literal interpretations

1215
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:16,720
which are very stagnant to me very

1216
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:20,240
unfulfilling towards a more symbolic and

1217
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:22,400
enriching interpretation so i was

1218
00:43:26,309 --> 00:43:24,079
brought up um

1219
00:43:28,870 --> 00:43:26,319
as in the christian church as well

1220
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:28,880
people were and was given an historical

1221
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:30,960
narrative and a very esoteric view of

1222
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:32,160
the life of jesus and then there's a

1223
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:34,480
movement to finding out this story about

1224
00:43:37,829 --> 00:43:36,160
crucifixion which always resonates that

1225
00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:37,839
has some kind of deep thing there feels

1226
00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:40,240
like it's deep and then you find out oh

1227
00:43:43,750 --> 00:43:41,520
it is it's all it's gnostic

1228
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:43,760
interpretation it reveals your true

1229
00:43:48,230 --> 00:43:46,480
identity that the false self dies

1230
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:48,240
on the cross and what i've been

1231
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:51,040
examining in that chapter is the role

1232
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:52,400
the power of the opposite side of that

1233
00:43:56,309 --> 00:43:54,800
coin the power of like

1234
00:43:57,190 --> 00:43:56,319
there's a joseph campbell quote where he

1235
00:44:00,470 --> 00:43:57,200
says that

1236
00:44:01,510 --> 00:44:00,480
spirituality dies when it is interpreted

1237
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:01,520
literally

1238
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:02,640
and i've always believed that and that's

1239
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:04,240
what you know actually somehow that's

1240
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:07,040
not true at all is it because

1241
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:08,400
christianity

1242
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:10,560
ditched the kind of gnostic mystical

1243
00:44:14,470 --> 00:44:12,319
aspect and became a very literal

1244
00:44:15,670 --> 00:44:14,480
religion about a historical figure and

1245
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:15,680
it basically took over the world it's

1246
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:17,280
got like two billion adherents it just

1247
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:18,720
lasted for two thousand years so he

1248
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:20,560
didn't die joseph campbell is clearly

1249
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,160
wrong and he's not wrong i understand

1250
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:24,319
how he's right but

1251
00:44:27,910 --> 00:44:25,119
it

1252
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:27,920
that's a bad thing

1253
00:44:32,630 --> 00:44:30,240
there is a need within

1254
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:32,640
the human psyche for

1255
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:34,640
the literal for to take our myths

1256
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:36,720
literally to think that this event

1257
00:44:40,630 --> 00:44:38,480
occurred on the material plane where

1258
00:44:42,630 --> 00:44:40,640
it's real it makes it real to us it has

1259
00:44:45,510 --> 00:44:42,640
a different effect and i explore

1260
00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:45,520
the writings of them

1261
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:46,480
um

1262
00:44:51,670 --> 00:44:48,800
philippe dick in that regard and philip

1263
00:44:54,230 --> 00:44:51,680
k dick's interesting relationship with

1264
00:44:56,230 --> 00:44:54,240
reality that when he's writing a book

1265
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:56,240
like the the man in the high tower

1266
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:57,760
uh

1267
00:45:01,990 --> 00:45:00,560
about the the take over off

1268
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:02,000
this alternative history where the nazis

1269
00:45:05,829 --> 00:45:04,000
won second world war and they split the

1270
00:45:07,349 --> 00:45:05,839
country with the the united states

1271
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:07,359
japanese then

1272
00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:08,880
he came to believe that really happened

1273
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:10,400
in an alternative reality where he'd

1274
00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:12,720
been to and he talks about that he talks

1275
00:45:15,589 --> 00:45:13,760
about how

1276
00:45:17,349 --> 00:45:15,599
chilling he finds it it takes this work

1277
00:45:19,589 --> 00:45:17,359
of fiction and takes it to another level

1278
00:45:21,430 --> 00:45:19,599
in terms of oh did this actually

1279
00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:21,440
this happen and

1280
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:23,040
i suggest david ike

1281
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:25,119
goes a bit further that then so he

1282
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:26,800
introduces a what is a very mythical

1283
00:45:30,309 --> 00:45:28,560
sounding concept of shape-shifting

1284
00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:30,319
reptilians

1285
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:32,160
can i can i rewind a little bit because

1286
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:33,680
i want to talk about that later but i

1287
00:45:36,870 --> 00:45:34,800
think we're going to

1288
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:36,880
lose the thread so just with your

1289
00:45:39,829 --> 00:45:38,160
permission that's great because we'll

1290
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:39,839
get to shape-shifting aliens next

1291
00:45:43,430 --> 00:45:42,000
because it's really super interesting

1292
00:45:44,550 --> 00:45:43,440
and i know exactly the place where we

1293
00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:44,560
can kind of cut it make a good

1294
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:47,520
transition so here's the point where

1295
00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:49,200
maybe you just don't agree with me maybe

1296
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:50,400
i'm

1297
00:45:56,309 --> 00:45:53,760
misinterpreting it

1298
00:45:58,069 --> 00:45:56,319
but where i was going with it was i

1299
00:46:01,510 --> 00:45:58,079
really love the part that you just said

1300
00:46:04,069 --> 00:46:01,520
earlier about this internal

1301
00:46:07,109 --> 00:46:04,079
paradigm shift conspiracy theory that we

1302
00:46:09,349 --> 00:46:07,119
have where we go oh my gosh my thoughts

1303
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:09,359
are i'm more than my thoughts

1304
00:46:15,750 --> 00:46:12,560
and that's feels conspiratorial

1305
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:15,760
just like jfk you know oh my gosh they

1306
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:17,760
really did you know

1307
00:46:21,510 --> 00:46:18,640
so

1308
00:46:23,670 --> 00:46:21,520
then i was drawing a parallel with

1309
00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:23,680
what you're talking about in terms of

1310
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:26,000
religion and how they've made this

1311
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:29,280
sacrifice and how i'm kind of

1312
00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:31,520
living out this

1313
00:46:35,030 --> 00:46:32,720
tradition

1314
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:35,040
in a way that now starts to feel

1315
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:37,760
conspiratorial it's real to me because

1316
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:40,720
it's brought me i'm speaking as a

1317
00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:43,520
someone who is has a profound christian

1318
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:45,520
experience that person would feel like

1319
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:47,760
wow this has been my whole life i've had

1320
00:46:52,950 --> 00:46:50,400
this i know my spirituality is real i

1321
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:52,960
know my relationship with jesus is real

1322
00:46:58,230 --> 00:46:55,119
what's going on here and i thought

1323
00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:58,240
that's what you were teasing out is that

1324
00:47:03,109 --> 00:47:02,160
i think feels conspiratorial again

1325
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:03,119
so

1326
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:06,400
do you agree with that or am i uh

1327
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:08,560
taking that in the wrong direction

1328
00:47:13,109 --> 00:47:11,520
maybe in the sense of i'm not quite sure

1329
00:47:14,710 --> 00:47:13,119
what you're getting guys in the sense

1330
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:14,720
the people have a spiritual experience

1331
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:16,000
of jesus and then at some point they

1332
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:18,000
find the religion is

1333
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:19,920
wrong and they're left in conflict then

1334
00:47:25,589 --> 00:47:21,760
you were putting it under the category

1335
00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:25,599
of discernment which i think is spot on

1336
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:27,440
and what i also heard you're saying kind

1337
00:47:33,670 --> 00:47:29,760
of reading between the lines is

1338
00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:33,680
spiritual growth is about discernment

1339
00:47:41,109 --> 00:47:37,440
and then understanding the nature of

1340
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:41,119
how these ops are influencing our life

1341
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:44,079
is a matter of discernment and you know

1342
00:47:49,990 --> 00:47:46,800
balancing between flat earth and

1343
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:50,000
plandemic is discernment so i see

1344
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:52,559
discernment all over the place in an

1345
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,640
awakening that comes when

1346
00:47:58,390 --> 00:47:56,640
you realize that the catholic church

1347
00:48:01,589 --> 00:47:58,400
isn't what you were taught you know i

1348
00:48:03,430 --> 00:48:01,599
mean to me it's a direct parallel

1349
00:48:06,069 --> 00:48:03,440
yeah that will be in in sense of the

1350
00:48:07,349 --> 00:48:06,079
concept of like the tower i make one of

1351
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:07,359
the chapters i talk about the tower card

1352
00:48:10,230 --> 00:48:08,559
in tarot

1353
00:48:12,470 --> 00:48:10,240
it's struck by lightning like something

1354
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:12,480
enters out of nowhere flash lightning

1355
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:14,400
and the crown of the tower falls the

1356
00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:16,240
building goes on fire so

1357
00:48:19,990 --> 00:48:18,079
i take the towers being symbolic about

1358
00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:20,000
our thoughts our paradigms we build up

1359
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:21,760
and something interject and

1360
00:48:25,510 --> 00:48:23,440
it can be seeing the collapse of

1361
00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:25,520
building seven it can be the recognition

1362
00:48:28,549 --> 00:48:27,119
of the catholic church is

1363
00:48:30,069 --> 00:48:28,559
something other than and what you think

1364
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:30,079
it is and

1365
00:48:34,549 --> 00:48:31,920
all the structures of our world come

1366
00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:34,559
tumbling down and that can happen on a

1367
00:48:37,109 --> 00:48:35,839
spiritual

1368
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:37,119
level in some way that gets us to

1369
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:38,160
reflect

1370
00:48:41,910 --> 00:48:40,480
on our inner selves or on an outer level

1371
00:48:43,990 --> 00:48:41,920
in terms of everything i thought about

1372
00:48:45,510 --> 00:48:44,000
the world was wrong and often i think

1373
00:48:47,589 --> 00:48:45,520
these things are linked and that's where

1374
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:47,599
you get the con spirituality term

1375
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:49,680
arising from but

1376
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:51,040
every idea we have about the world

1377
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:53,839
suddenly comes to question so let's talk

1378
00:48:57,990 --> 00:48:56,319
for a minute because it's kind of come

1379
00:49:00,230 --> 00:48:58,000
up a couple of times already

1380
00:49:01,510 --> 00:49:00,240
shape-shifting aliens

1381
00:49:04,630 --> 00:49:01,520
and i'll

1382
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:04,640
share then another quote from the book

1383
00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:07,520
contemplating conspiracy and this is one

1384
00:49:13,349 --> 00:49:10,559
that you took from tom woods and i'll

1385
00:49:14,829 --> 00:49:13,359
have you describe who tom woods is

1386
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:14,839
because i think it's relevant to the

1387
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:18,000
quote but this readiness for war like

1388
00:49:22,710 --> 00:49:20,319
it's some awesome video game you've got

1389
00:49:24,950 --> 00:49:22,720
to just say to people that's just not

1390
00:49:27,349 --> 00:49:24,960
right it's not right to cheer for widows

1391
00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:27,359
and orphans being created i mean be a

1392
00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:29,440
human for a change don't be dick cheney

1393
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:31,599
don't be john kerry don't be all these

1394
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:33,920
shape-shifting lizards by the way once

1395
00:49:37,190 --> 00:49:35,200
in a while i think maybe there's

1396
00:49:40,630 --> 00:49:37,200
something to that because a normal

1397
00:49:41,670 --> 00:49:40,640
person would not act like this

1398
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:41,680
okay

1399
00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:46,640
is a historian and economist and he's

1400
00:49:51,270 --> 00:49:48,960
one of the leading figures i would say

1401
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:51,280
in the libertarian movement he runs a

1402
00:49:57,270 --> 00:49:53,040
podcast and

1403
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:57,280
harvard mba uh yeah very popular podcast

1404
00:50:03,349 --> 00:49:59,839
kind of well respected also takes some

1405
00:50:05,270 --> 00:50:03,359
flack uh libertarian and also kind of a

1406
00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:05,280
southern southern pride kind of guy

1407
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:07,599
which we'll talk about in a minute

1408
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:08,480
um

1409
00:50:11,670 --> 00:50:09,599
so

1410
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:11,680
what intrigued me when i heard that was

1411
00:50:15,910 --> 00:50:13,920
david ike's concept of

1412
00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:15,920
the reptilians which he introduces on a

1413
00:50:19,829 --> 00:50:17,200
literal level

1414
00:50:22,230 --> 00:50:19,839
is picked up and used on a on a mythical

1415
00:50:24,790 --> 00:50:22,240
level then so you're using this symbol

1416
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:24,800
of something to convey the

1417
00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:26,640
the inner nature of who these people are

1418
00:50:30,390 --> 00:50:29,280
without necessarily taking it literally

1419
00:50:32,470 --> 00:50:30,400
okay

1420
00:50:34,549 --> 00:50:32,480
just for everybody because this is

1421
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:34,559
probably not necessary

1422
00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:37,280
david ike who is he and what is this

1423
00:50:40,150 --> 00:50:38,559
shape-shifting

1424
00:50:42,069 --> 00:50:40,160
reptilian thing because you've really

1425
00:50:45,190 --> 00:50:42,079
studied david ike and you have all

1426
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:45,200
series on your podcast of really reading

1427
00:50:49,270 --> 00:50:47,280
david ike you you read david ike

1428
00:50:50,710 --> 00:50:49,280
extensively so tell that let me start

1429
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:50,720
there let me let me say who he is to me

1430
00:50:54,390 --> 00:50:51,839
so i was

1431
00:50:56,069 --> 00:50:54,400
became interested in spirituality at

1432
00:50:57,910 --> 00:50:56,079
18. i just

1433
00:50:59,109 --> 00:50:57,920
had some experiences that opened me up

1434
00:51:00,950 --> 00:50:59,119
to that so

1435
00:51:02,710 --> 00:51:00,960
i started gravitating towards that

1436
00:51:04,069 --> 00:51:02,720
section of the bookshop okay and then

1437
00:51:06,150 --> 00:51:04,079
this book in there called the biggest

1438
00:51:07,829 --> 00:51:06,160
secret i noticed one day what's that

1439
00:51:09,510 --> 00:51:07,839
what's the biggest secret the secret i

1440
00:51:11,910 --> 00:51:09,520
don't know about it what is it so and

1441
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:11,920
then this is written by david ike and he

1442
00:51:14,549 --> 00:51:13,440
talks about this alternative vision of

1443
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:14,559
history where there's been a secret

1444
00:51:17,349 --> 00:51:16,480
society controlling things all the way

1445
00:51:19,109 --> 00:51:17,359
along

1446
00:51:21,109 --> 00:51:19,119
and i think part of me is interested in

1447
00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:21,119
an intellectual effort could you do that

1448
00:51:24,630 --> 00:51:22,640
can you construct an alternative vision

1449
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:24,640
of history that would hold up scrutiny

1450
00:51:27,990 --> 00:51:25,920
or would it just go splat because i've

1451
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:28,000
done a history a level just prior to

1452
00:51:31,829 --> 00:51:29,920
that and i remember having these kind of

1453
00:51:33,510 --> 00:51:31,839
thoughts like we're just told this story

1454
00:51:35,670 --> 00:51:33,520
we don't know if it's true and

1455
00:51:37,109 --> 00:51:35,680
i'm sure it is but so this really on an

1456
00:51:38,630 --> 00:51:37,119
intellectual level

1457
00:51:40,390 --> 00:51:38,640
intuitive international level intrigued

1458
00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:40,400
me and then that's the book where david

1459
00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:43,200
introduces his concept that um

1460
00:51:45,910 --> 00:51:44,319
which has been building up to a few

1461
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:45,920
years that the

1462
00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:48,079
prominent people in

1463
00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:49,359
the power structures of the world the

1464
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:51,040
rothschild rockefeller family the royal

1465
00:51:55,190 --> 00:51:54,000
families certain u.s presidents were

1466
00:51:57,030 --> 00:51:55,200
shape-shifting reptilians they would

1467
00:51:59,510 --> 00:51:57,040
literally go behind closed doors

1468
00:52:02,069 --> 00:51:59,520
and shed their human skin and from some

1469
00:52:05,190 --> 00:52:02,079
magical process become full-blown

1470
00:52:06,870 --> 00:52:05,200
reptilian entities and that's just

1471
00:52:08,549 --> 00:52:06,880
like that's incredible that someone

1472
00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:08,559
would even write such a thing as

1473
00:52:11,750 --> 00:52:10,880
incredible david like would also write

1474
00:52:13,030 --> 00:52:11,760
things

1475
00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:13,040
such as

1476
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:15,440
the cia traffic strokes

1477
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:17,520
such as that big bombing in oklahoma

1478
00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:18,640
that had recently taken place that was a

1479
00:52:22,549 --> 00:52:20,880
conspiracy uh that the us government had

1480
00:52:24,470 --> 00:52:22,559
been involved in all these violent

1481
00:52:26,390 --> 00:52:24,480
overthrows of governments across the

1482
00:52:28,150 --> 00:52:26,400
world and to me

1483
00:52:30,630 --> 00:52:28,160
all that stuff sounded

1484
00:52:33,030 --> 00:52:30,640
really no less wild than shape-shifting

1485
00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:33,040
reptilians the idea that the cia traffic

1486
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:35,920
drugs was completely crazy to me like

1487
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:37,920
that was just

1488
00:52:42,069 --> 00:52:40,640
i could almost easier believe the queen

1489
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:42,079
shape-shifted into a reptile than that

1490
00:52:45,349 --> 00:52:43,280
because that was

1491
00:52:48,390 --> 00:52:45,359
no one had ever said anything like that

1492
00:52:50,069 --> 00:52:48,400
and i i can't but i i researched

1493
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:50,079
especially court in 2001 and found that

1494
00:52:53,510 --> 00:52:51,760
hey i want to solve this guy is this

1495
00:52:55,510 --> 00:52:53,520
blue and true we're living in a very

1496
00:52:56,870 --> 00:52:55,520
different world to what i thought we

1497
00:52:59,190 --> 00:52:56,880
were so what do you do about this

1498
00:53:00,950 --> 00:52:59,200
reptilian thing where's that going and i

1499
00:53:02,150 --> 00:53:00,960
struggled away trying to understand the

1500
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:02,160
world from that

1501
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:04,319
kind of paradigm then number of years

1502
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:05,760
backed away from and then re-engaged

1503
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:08,240
with conspiracies at a later point

1504
00:53:12,230 --> 00:53:10,400
and what i was left to reflect on in

1505
00:53:14,549 --> 00:53:12,240
more recent years

1506
00:53:16,150 --> 00:53:14,559
was

1507
00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:16,160
you could take the position on david ike

1508
00:53:19,589 --> 00:53:18,240
that okay he put some good stuff in but

1509
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:19,599
the reptilian stuff is crazy or you

1510
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:20,400
could take the position the

1511
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:22,800
representative that's true i wondered

1512
00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:24,480
what an effect it had on me in terms of

1513
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:26,800
creating that paradigm shift that

1514
00:53:32,069 --> 00:53:28,559
would a book by

1515
00:53:33,589 --> 00:53:32,079
john pilger or stephen kinser or

1516
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:33,599
william bloom somebody writes i think

1517
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:35,839
very sensible books that document the

1518
00:53:39,430 --> 00:53:37,760
nature of the empire if i picked one of

1519
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:39,440
those up would have the effect or did i

1520
00:53:44,390 --> 00:53:42,319
need a kind of mythic initiation with a

1521
00:53:46,309 --> 00:53:44,400
guy who's saying no no no reality is not

1522
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:46,319
a bit dissimilar to what you think it is

1523
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:49,440
reality is totally 100 percent turned on

1524
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:51,440
at its head completely different they're

1525
00:53:54,790 --> 00:53:53,359
reptiles so

1526
00:53:55,910 --> 00:53:54,800
i think what david like is you could

1527
00:53:56,950 --> 00:53:55,920
look at it this way you know david like

1528
00:53:59,750 --> 00:53:56,960
doesn't look at this you could look at

1529
00:54:02,230 --> 00:53:59,760
it dave like is employing mythology

1530
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:02,240
to create an effect on somebody and he's

1531
00:54:05,910 --> 00:54:04,000
strengthening that mythology by saying

1532
00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:05,920
and it is literally true

1533
00:54:10,150 --> 00:54:08,240
okay whereas phillip dick philip k dick

1534
00:54:11,670 --> 00:54:10,160
goes halfway in that and says it's true

1535
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:11,680
but it exists in alternative worlds

1536
00:54:15,750 --> 00:54:13,680
usually we like our stories nice and

1537
00:54:17,030 --> 00:54:15,760
safe okay we like them in a fictional

1538
00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:17,040
world

1539
00:54:22,470 --> 00:54:19,760
where they don't

1540
00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:22,480
bleed into and contaminate this one and

1541
00:54:27,589 --> 00:54:24,960
i found that david ike was playing with

1542
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:27,599
lithuanism in that way fascinating and

1543
00:54:30,470 --> 00:54:29,280
you could sort of say christianity did

1544
00:54:31,430 --> 00:54:30,480
the same thing

1545
00:54:33,670 --> 00:54:31,440
that

1546
00:54:35,829 --> 00:54:33,680
i'm the kind of mythicist okay so i

1547
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:35,839
don't think there was a historical

1548
00:54:40,069 --> 00:54:37,680
figure called jesus at least not one

1549
00:54:41,829 --> 00:54:40,079
that bears a close relationship to the

1550
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:41,839
people the person people are worshipping

1551
00:54:45,589 --> 00:54:44,000
in church on sunday morning but

1552
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:45,599
with the christian church

1553
00:54:51,030 --> 00:54:48,160
making him more than a symbol a literal

1554
00:54:53,030 --> 00:54:51,040
historical figure he takes on a power to

1555
00:54:55,190 --> 00:54:53,040
affect people that he otherwise wouldn't

1556
00:54:57,349 --> 00:54:55,200
have and that seems to be important to

1557
00:54:59,109 --> 00:54:57,359
me so i'm playing with this idea of

1558
00:55:00,950 --> 00:54:59,119
literalism is dangerous literalism is

1559
00:55:03,349 --> 00:55:00,960
kind of crazy but do we do we need it in

1560
00:55:05,349 --> 00:55:03,359
some way because it has this power to it

1561
00:55:07,829 --> 00:55:05,359
and then tom woods there is simply using

1562
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:07,839
the um the reptilian thing symbolically

1563
00:55:11,349 --> 00:55:09,760
so far isn't that interesting that

1564
00:55:14,230 --> 00:55:11,359
whether whether we

1565
00:55:15,750 --> 00:55:14,240
use it literally or symbolically we need

1566
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:15,760
the mythic in some way when we're having

1567
00:55:18,789 --> 00:55:17,520
these conversations about politics

1568
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:18,799
because you need to break out of this

1569
00:55:22,390 --> 00:55:20,400
sense that dick cheney is in some way

1570
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:22,400
like you or that he has the things that

1571
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:24,079
come out of his mouth or in any way true

1572
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:26,000
or representation of his goals and one

1573
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:27,440
way of doing that is to think of them as

1574
00:55:30,789 --> 00:55:29,680
being a reptilian in human form and in

1575
00:55:32,789 --> 00:55:30,799
some ways

1576
00:55:34,710 --> 00:55:32,799
that's more accurate i actually go pose

1577
00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:34,720
a chapter around the question is george

1578
00:55:37,829 --> 00:55:36,640
will be abortion shape-shifting reptile

1579
00:55:39,190 --> 00:55:37,839
and

1580
00:55:40,789 --> 00:55:39,200
to give away the punchline the

1581
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:40,799
conclusion is

1582
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,799
whether it is not that view of him is

1583
00:55:46,710 --> 00:55:44,640
more accurate than the cultic followers

1584
00:55:48,470 --> 00:55:46,720
who chant his name at him

1585
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:48,480
in that chapter you reference

1586
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:51,040
and it's brilliantly done

1587
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:53,040
a rally led by

1588
00:55:57,109 --> 00:55:55,839
former governor of the state i live in

1589
00:55:59,750 --> 00:55:57,119
california

1590
00:56:01,430 --> 00:55:59,760
arnold schwarzenegger the famous movie

1591
00:56:04,470 --> 00:56:01,440
star where

1592
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:04,480
it is truly

1593
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:06,799
directly parallel to a cult rally where

1594
00:56:10,950 --> 00:56:07,920
it's like

1595
00:56:15,270 --> 00:56:10,960
who is our greatest leader

1596
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:15,280
george w bush who's going to help us get

1597
00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:18,400
jobs george i mean it's you do a great

1598
00:56:22,309 --> 00:56:20,079
job in the book and it's hard to walk

1599
00:56:24,309 --> 00:56:22,319
away from that chapter or that that

1600
00:56:26,069 --> 00:56:24,319
section and not go

1601
00:56:27,750 --> 00:56:26,079
oh my god how could that have just

1602
00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:27,760
happened right in front of our eyes and

1603
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:29,359
not know it

1604
00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:32,400
at the same time i want to go back to

1605
00:56:35,829 --> 00:56:34,720
what you're saying because

1606
00:56:38,630 --> 00:56:35,839
i want to

1607
00:56:41,990 --> 00:56:38,640
kind of offer a different perspective on

1608
00:56:44,710 --> 00:56:42,000
it so this whole literalism versus

1609
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:44,720
mythical metaphorical understanding of

1610
00:56:50,789 --> 00:56:47,280
it links back to your point about

1611
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:50,799
discernment because what we really want

1612
00:56:56,230 --> 00:56:53,359
is a foot in both worlds as i was saying

1613
00:56:58,789 --> 00:56:56,240
before we want a foot in the

1614
00:57:00,710 --> 00:56:58,799
literal world and we want to foot in the

1615
00:57:03,030 --> 00:57:00,720
mythical metaphorical i would really say

1616
00:57:04,630 --> 00:57:03,040
that's the spiritual world so the point

1617
00:57:06,630 --> 00:57:04,640
that kind of did

1618
00:57:09,349 --> 00:57:06,640
irk me a little bit is

1619
00:57:12,309 --> 00:57:09,359
you never really addressed

1620
00:57:13,990 --> 00:57:12,319
shape-shifting reptilians from a

1621
00:57:17,190 --> 00:57:14,000
literal perspective

1622
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:17,200
and i think that always has to be

1623
00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:18,319
in play

1624
00:57:22,710 --> 00:57:20,319
and even if it's like if you want to

1625
00:57:24,630 --> 00:57:22,720
address well i do this all the time with

1626
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:24,640
people like if you want to talk about

1627
00:57:30,870 --> 00:57:27,359
flat earth with me i'll talk about flat

1628
00:57:33,870 --> 00:57:30,880
earth i'll say gee this only takes about

1629
00:57:36,789 --> 00:57:33,880
30 seconds of my time to show how

1630
00:57:38,470 --> 00:57:36,799
scientifically ridiculous and stupid it

1631
00:57:40,630 --> 00:57:38,480
is because it doesn't account for the

1632
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:40,640
fact that i can go online and see

1633
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:42,799
pictures of the earth updated every 10

1634
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:45,040
seconds and i can cross-correlate those

1635
00:57:51,510 --> 00:57:48,240
with weather pattern photos that match

1636
00:57:54,390 --> 00:57:51,520
and bingo there it is it's clearly not

1637
00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:54,400
and then i can listen to the absurdity

1638
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:57,040
that satellites are held into era by

1639
00:58:01,670 --> 00:57:59,280
helium balloons and i can

1640
00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:01,680
i can but i can engage with it on a

1641
00:58:05,430 --> 00:58:04,160
literal level and i can show that it's

1642
00:58:07,430 --> 00:58:05,440
not

1643
00:58:09,670 --> 00:58:07,440
sustainable it doesn't make any sense

1644
00:58:11,109 --> 00:58:09,680
the same way that uh holocaust i i have

1645
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:11,119
no problem

1646
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:13,680
then i like revisiting hull hoaxers

1647
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:15,119
because i like to see where their game

1648
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:16,640
is at what they're at it's always the

1649
00:58:20,630 --> 00:58:18,160
same thing you didn't kill six million

1650
00:58:22,710 --> 00:58:20,640
jews well he did and i just had to go

1651
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:22,720
recently on the forum and cite an

1652
00:58:26,069 --> 00:58:24,480
article a recent article said well

1653
00:58:27,589 --> 00:58:26,079
here's where we can really

1654
00:58:30,789 --> 00:58:27,599
drive a stake in the ground and show

1655
00:58:33,349 --> 00:58:30,799
that hitler killed 1.5 million jews in a

1656
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:33,359
hundred day period

1657
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:36,400
in the death camps so it's like oh what

1658
00:58:39,829 --> 00:58:38,480
are you going to do with that and

1659
00:58:42,470 --> 00:58:39,839
that and and

1660
00:58:44,309 --> 00:58:42,480
what the poster this is get us back to

1661
00:58:46,630 --> 00:58:44,319
the point as i digress

1662
00:58:49,510 --> 00:58:46,640
what the poster did with that

1663
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:49,520
is what i think we have to avoid

1664
00:58:54,710 --> 00:58:52,240
doing in our little world here

1665
00:58:57,030 --> 00:58:54,720
and that's that he just ignored it just

1666
00:59:00,309 --> 00:58:57,040
went around and went back to his

1667
00:59:02,870 --> 00:59:00,319
playbook standard kind of thing

1668
00:59:06,150 --> 00:59:02,880
and that's what i don't want to do

1669
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:06,160
with shape-shifting aliens as a punch

1670
00:59:11,829 --> 00:59:09,040
line to a joke unless you can really

1671
00:59:13,430 --> 00:59:11,839
show me that it is a joke but see you

1672
00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:13,440
and i know

1673
00:59:16,549 --> 00:59:15,520
that there's some parts of that

1674
00:59:20,069 --> 00:59:16,559
narrative

1675
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:20,079
that are a little bit hard to dismiss

1676
00:59:25,030 --> 00:59:23,280
like take for example shape-shifting

1677
00:59:26,789 --> 00:59:25,040
right

1678
00:59:28,789 --> 00:59:26,799
shape-shifting

1679
00:59:30,950 --> 00:59:28,799
there's a lot of traditions wisdom

1680
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:30,960
traditions that directly say

1681
00:59:37,589 --> 00:59:34,319
shape-shifting and when we look at the

1682
00:59:39,910 --> 00:59:37,599
dmt experiments control experiments

1683
00:59:43,190 --> 00:59:39,920
shape-shifting right there right out the

1684
00:59:45,030 --> 00:59:43,200
back and it's reptilians too right

1685
00:59:45,829 --> 00:59:45,040
and then if we're willing to open up to

1686
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:45,839
the

1687
00:59:50,309 --> 00:59:48,559
alien abduction literature which we

1688
00:59:51,910 --> 00:59:50,319
should because there's a lot of good

1689
00:59:55,510 --> 00:59:51,920
work that's been there that's pretty

1690
00:59:58,309 --> 00:59:55,520
solid again what pops up

1691
01:00:00,069 --> 00:59:58,319
other species some of these species look

1692
01:00:01,349 --> 01:00:00,079
reptilian we hear that over and over

1693
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:01,359
again different accounts through

1694
01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:03,599
different ages these things start to

1695
01:00:07,750 --> 01:00:04,480
look

1696
01:00:10,549 --> 01:00:07,760
interestingly important to investigate

1697
01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:10,559
on a level beyond

1698
01:00:14,950 --> 01:00:12,400
punchline to a joke

1699
01:00:17,270 --> 01:00:14,960
again you understand this because you

1700
01:00:19,510 --> 01:00:17,280
get the discernment thing that doesn't

1701
01:00:22,390 --> 01:00:19,520
mean that i believe

1702
01:00:25,430 --> 01:00:22,400
literally what david ike is saying is

1703
01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:25,440
true but by the way david ike claims to

1704
01:00:31,109 --> 01:00:28,880
have experienced this in the extended

1705
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:31,119
consciousness realm which i think we

1706
01:00:35,030 --> 01:00:33,839
have to pay some attention to too

1707
01:00:36,789 --> 01:00:35,040
because again

1708
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:36,799
there's other parallels and stuff like

1709
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:38,799
that and i think that's part of this

1710
01:00:45,670 --> 01:00:42,000
discernment process is don't be so quick

1711
01:00:48,710 --> 01:00:45,680
to be on the side of the sensible

1712
01:00:50,470 --> 01:00:48,720
you know because they're lost

1713
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:50,480
they're more and you point this out in

1714
01:00:56,470 --> 01:00:53,599
the book is that clearly

1715
01:00:59,670 --> 01:00:56,480
that's wrong like neil degrasse tyson

1716
01:01:02,950 --> 01:00:59,680
consciousness is an illusion is much

1717
01:01:05,190 --> 01:01:02,960
more uh ridiculous and absurd than

1718
01:01:08,789 --> 01:01:05,200
shape-shifting aliens shape-shifting

1719
01:01:11,910 --> 01:01:08,799
reptilians it just i would say that as a

1720
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:11,920
fully discernment matter of fact reading

1721
01:01:15,510 --> 01:01:14,160
of the data

1722
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:15,520
yeah so

1723
01:01:17,829 --> 01:01:16,720
i want

1724
01:01:19,349 --> 01:01:17,839
i'm doing the currently doing a series

1725
01:01:20,549 --> 01:01:19,359
as you know i'm david ike where i am

1726
01:01:21,829 --> 01:01:20,559
it's called reading david like but it

1727
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:21,839
could really be called understanding

1728
01:01:24,950 --> 01:01:23,280
david like i've gone back to his first

1729
01:01:26,150 --> 01:01:24,960
book and

1730
01:01:28,470 --> 01:01:26,160
i'm trying to

1731
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:28,480
explain understand myself how he made

1732
01:01:32,069 --> 01:01:30,240
this intellectual journey to a place

1733
01:01:34,950 --> 01:01:32,079
that very few people occupy and how he

1734
01:01:36,950 --> 01:01:34,960
did its good way and for me i think

1735
01:01:39,510 --> 01:01:36,960
that's kind of therapeutic on some level

1736
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:39,520
to understand my own history and

1737
01:01:42,710 --> 01:01:41,359
relationship with his work

1738
01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:42,720
and

1739
01:01:47,829 --> 01:01:46,240
there's times where

1740
01:01:49,910 --> 01:01:47,839
i can come to the fork in the road where

1741
01:01:51,270 --> 01:01:49,920
david went one way and i could say well

1742
01:01:52,950 --> 01:01:51,280
i've agreed with him so far but i

1743
01:01:54,150 --> 01:01:52,960
wouldn't go that way mr i think he got

1744
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:54,160
you know was the early 90s we didn't

1745
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:55,920
have an internet i think he put too much

1746
01:01:58,549 --> 01:01:57,200
weight on a certain set of facts that

1747
01:02:00,470 --> 01:01:58,559
led him to believe

1748
01:02:02,549 --> 01:02:00,480
that the conspiracy stretches back in a

1749
01:02:04,549 --> 01:02:02,559
very consistent manner through hundreds

1750
01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:04,559
of years and i don't see it that way

1751
01:02:08,230 --> 01:02:06,720
i'm when we get to this level i have you

1752
01:02:09,829 --> 01:02:08,240
back in two years alex i might say i'm

1753
01:02:12,069 --> 01:02:09,839
completely wrong about that because this

1754
01:02:14,390 --> 01:02:12,079
is a much harder level to see into than

1755
01:02:17,589 --> 01:02:14,400
but with the chapter in the book it's

1756
01:02:19,589 --> 01:02:17,599
the book is really written i suppose to

1757
01:02:22,150 --> 01:02:19,599
people who are cynical about conspiracy

1758
01:02:23,990 --> 01:02:22,160
now it might be in probably more widely

1759
01:02:25,670 --> 01:02:24,000
read by people who aren't right it might

1760
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:25,680
be more widely enjoyed by them and more

1761
01:02:29,349 --> 01:02:27,280
beneficial to them but it's written in

1762
01:02:30,630 --> 01:02:29,359
that kind of way so i'm phrasing the

1763
01:02:31,670 --> 01:02:30,640
chapter as

1764
01:02:34,069 --> 01:02:31,680
okay

1765
01:02:36,230 --> 01:02:34,079
you think david ikes kind of bonkers to

1766
01:02:37,750 --> 01:02:36,240
thinking that george w bush or anyone

1767
01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:37,760
else is shape-shifting reptilian right

1768
01:02:41,349 --> 01:02:39,839
okay maybe he is but he's not bonkers as

1769
01:02:43,029 --> 01:02:41,359
those people is he not by a long way in

1770
01:02:45,190 --> 01:02:43,039
fact he's got a far more accurate

1771
01:02:46,309 --> 01:02:45,200
picture far more accurate he's really if

1772
01:02:47,670 --> 01:02:46,319
he's wrong he's wrong on the physical

1773
01:02:49,510 --> 01:02:47,680
level like there's no physical

1774
01:02:51,589 --> 01:02:49,520
transformation into

1775
01:02:53,829 --> 01:02:51,599
scaly reptilian skin

1776
01:02:55,109 --> 01:02:53,839
but on an inner level

1777
01:02:56,789 --> 01:02:55,119
on the level of what is the

1778
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:56,799
consciousness of this man

1779
01:03:00,630 --> 01:02:59,520
he's spot on he's completely right so

1780
01:03:03,029 --> 01:03:00,640
you're

1781
01:03:04,950 --> 01:03:03,039
as wrong okay now as to the question of

1782
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:04,960
like what what do we draw from that well

1783
01:03:08,549 --> 01:03:06,720
there's a whole spectrum of how right or

1784
01:03:09,750 --> 01:03:08,559
wrong david i could be i find it very

1785
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:09,760
hard to think

1786
01:03:12,390 --> 01:03:11,119
um that

1787
01:03:13,510 --> 01:03:12,400
this is something to go and know if

1788
01:03:14,950 --> 01:03:13,520
david i could come out and said oh by

1789
01:03:16,230 --> 01:03:14,960
the way they're shapeshifting

1790
01:03:17,510 --> 01:03:16,240
and there was like a flood of

1791
01:03:19,430 --> 01:03:17,520
whistleblowers i worked at the royal

1792
01:03:21,910 --> 01:03:19,440
palace and i saw prince philip

1793
01:03:24,150 --> 01:03:21,920
his tail poking out of his pants and and

1794
01:03:25,829 --> 01:03:24,160
so on and that then okay fine that

1795
01:03:26,549 --> 01:03:25,839
didn't happen and

1796
01:03:28,549 --> 01:03:26,559
it's

1797
01:03:30,789 --> 01:03:28,559
inconceivable to me that something like

1798
01:03:31,990 --> 01:03:30,799
this could be covered up for so long

1799
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:32,000
okay but that's an extreme end of the

1800
01:03:35,349 --> 01:03:33,599
spectrum if you step one step down from

1801
01:03:37,589 --> 01:03:35,359
there it does some kind of

1802
01:03:38,950 --> 01:03:37,599
shape-shifting i've seen people's faces

1803
01:03:41,430 --> 01:03:38,960
transfigure in a way that i'm not

1804
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:41,440
entirely convinced is explicable through

1805
01:03:47,109 --> 01:03:45,200
the visual system getting corrupted um

1806
01:03:48,950 --> 01:03:47,119
and of course it's a humanitation and

1807
01:03:52,150 --> 01:03:48,960
then it just invites in the other

1808
01:03:54,870 --> 01:03:52,160
massive question well what about

1809
01:03:56,789 --> 01:03:54,880
if we accept as as we do that the

1810
01:03:58,390 --> 01:03:56,799
validity of researchers like julie by

1811
01:03:59,190 --> 01:03:58,400
shell that there is this

1812
01:04:00,630 --> 01:03:59,200
uh

1813
01:04:02,470 --> 01:04:00,640
world

1814
01:04:05,270 --> 01:04:02,480
we are in some way in communication we

1815
01:04:06,950 --> 01:04:05,280
can communicate with entities outside of

1816
01:04:09,029 --> 01:04:06,960
what appears to be here

1817
01:04:10,390 --> 01:04:09,039
we are forced right into the question of

1818
01:04:13,990 --> 01:04:10,400
how have they emphasised history right

1819
01:04:15,430 --> 01:04:14,000
or all any entities doing um reassuring

1820
01:04:16,390 --> 01:04:15,440
their their grandkids on the earthly

1821
01:04:18,470 --> 01:04:16,400
plane that everything is nice and

1822
01:04:19,670 --> 01:04:18,480
wonderful where they are or are they

1823
01:04:21,349 --> 01:04:19,680
trying to build empires through

1824
01:04:23,109 --> 01:04:21,359
whispering in the ears of

1825
01:04:24,630 --> 01:04:23,119
powerful political people right and you

1826
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:24,640
have this thing of john d we're all kind

1827
01:04:28,230 --> 01:04:26,640
of living in in the mind of john d to

1828
01:04:31,430 --> 01:04:28,240
certain extent the um

1829
01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:31,440
uh 16th century alchemist uh because

1830
01:04:34,789 --> 01:04:32,960
that he was an intellectual architect of

1831
01:04:36,789 --> 01:04:34,799
the british empire which flows into the

1832
01:04:38,069 --> 01:04:36,799
american empire so

1833
01:04:40,870 --> 01:04:38,079
where does that come from it comes from

1834
01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:40,880
his scrying sessions uh with edwin kelly

1835
01:04:43,510 --> 01:04:41,920
and

1836
01:04:45,029 --> 01:04:43,520
a spirit claiming to be the archangel

1837
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:45,039
michael telling him that britain should

1838
01:04:49,190 --> 01:04:46,559
build all these ships and go and take

1839
01:04:50,789 --> 01:04:49,200
over the world so

1840
01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:50,799
you can't you can't get out of that

1841
01:04:53,910 --> 01:04:52,160
question and i think that these are the

1842
01:04:55,109 --> 01:04:53,920
really deep questions we should be

1843
01:04:56,870 --> 01:04:55,119
asking and david i could ask him he's

1844
01:04:58,309 --> 01:04:56,880
coming with answers that maybe i can't

1845
01:05:00,549 --> 01:04:58,319
can't entirely go with but i think he's

1846
01:05:02,549 --> 01:05:00,559
exactly right on you can't ignore this

1847
01:05:03,829 --> 01:05:02,559
part of

1848
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:03,839
the world

1849
01:05:10,230 --> 01:05:05,680
yeah see the quibble i have with you on

1850
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:10,240
that is i'm not advocating a weighing of

1851
01:05:14,309 --> 01:05:11,760
david ike's

1852
01:05:18,069 --> 01:05:14,319
soul or even his

1853
01:05:20,309 --> 01:05:18,079
accuracy versus neil degrasse tyson or

1854
01:05:22,150 --> 01:05:20,319
dawkins or whoever

1855
01:05:25,109 --> 01:05:22,160
you want to put him against joe rogan or

1856
01:05:27,029 --> 01:05:25,119
whoever i think that's that's a mistake

1857
01:05:29,589 --> 01:05:27,039
i think it gets us away from your

1858
01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:29,599
excellent discernment point i think we

1859
01:05:34,390 --> 01:05:31,440
should hold david ike accountable for

1860
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:34,400
each and every point that he says and

1861
01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:37,119
weigh each one individually like oh i

1862
01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:38,400
interviewed david eichen i really got

1863
01:05:43,589 --> 01:05:40,880
him on him because he's fallen into this

1864
01:05:45,990 --> 01:05:43,599
there is no virus we haven't isolated

1865
01:05:49,349 --> 01:05:46,000
the coronavirus that's not a statement

1866
01:05:51,349 --> 01:05:49,359
that holds up to scientific scrutiny

1867
01:05:52,950 --> 01:05:51,359
and i'll just leave it at that because

1868
01:05:55,029 --> 01:05:52,960
i've covered it many times and it isn't

1869
01:05:58,150 --> 01:05:55,039
relevant to our conversation

1870
01:06:01,109 --> 01:05:58,160
but i would say that with regard to

1871
01:06:02,630 --> 01:06:01,119
shape-shifting aliens on that point

1872
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:02,640
i would suggest

1873
01:06:09,109 --> 01:06:05,920
he has the potential of being more right

1874
01:06:12,309 --> 01:06:09,119
than you're giving him a credit for i'm

1875
01:06:14,549 --> 01:06:12,319
very much looking forward to getting to

1876
01:06:16,710 --> 01:06:14,559
a full assessment of how david ike and

1877
01:06:20,390 --> 01:06:16,720
the full understanding of how they came

1878
01:06:22,789 --> 01:06:20,400
to the reptilian position it's

1879
01:06:24,549 --> 01:06:22,799
connected to the mk auto program and to

1880
01:06:25,829 --> 01:06:24,559
do it justice is

1881
01:06:26,789 --> 01:06:25,839
quite a bit of work so i'm hoping over

1882
01:06:30,710 --> 01:06:26,799
the summer

1883
01:06:34,309 --> 01:06:30,720
i'll get there i find the specific

1884
01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:35,910
all these

1885
01:06:39,510 --> 01:06:37,920
people in very powerful positions

1886
01:06:41,109 --> 01:06:39,520
consciously walking around knowing that

1887
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:41,119
they are secretly shape-shifting

1888
01:06:45,990 --> 01:06:43,680
reptilians and just putting on an acting

1889
01:06:47,349 --> 01:06:46,000
performance for human society i find

1890
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:47,359
that

1891
01:06:51,589 --> 01:06:49,839
incongruent with

1892
01:06:53,109 --> 01:06:51,599
what we know about

1893
01:06:54,950 --> 01:06:53,119
the world about the association they've

1894
01:06:56,390 --> 01:06:54,960
had so

1895
01:06:57,990 --> 01:06:56,400
but i'm only speaking to the particular

1896
01:06:59,670 --> 01:06:58,000
way david ike

1897
01:07:02,950 --> 01:06:59,680
has presented it if you back off that a

1898
01:07:04,710 --> 01:07:02,960
bit in intensity i'm not saying that

1899
01:07:06,069 --> 01:07:04,720
every concept of shape-shifting is

1900
01:07:07,829 --> 01:07:06,079
incorrect or that's something that can't

1901
01:07:09,349 --> 01:07:07,839
happen i'm certainly not saying that

1902
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:09,359
there aren't forces beyond this world

1903
01:07:12,870 --> 01:07:11,440
that seek to influence it on a on a

1904
01:07:15,270 --> 01:07:12,880
global scale

1905
01:07:17,430 --> 01:07:15,280
great so that's a great great point and

1906
01:07:19,750 --> 01:07:17,440
that gets back that's that's discernment

1907
01:07:21,190 --> 01:07:19,760
to me that's a and i agree with you one

1908
01:07:22,870 --> 01:07:21,200
thousand percent on everything that you

1909
01:07:25,349 --> 01:07:22,880
just said discernment discernment

1910
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:25,359
discernment guy takes it too far you go

1911
01:07:29,190 --> 01:07:26,960
no that doesn't hold up for the

1912
01:07:31,829 --> 01:07:29,200
following reasons the guy backs off it

1913
01:07:34,309 --> 01:07:31,839
you go that does start fitting in with

1914
01:07:36,710 --> 01:07:34,319
some other data sets that we have as

1915
01:07:39,109 --> 01:07:36,720
uncomfortable as normies might be about

1916
01:07:40,710 --> 01:07:39,119
that does fit in those data sets the

1917
01:07:43,910 --> 01:07:40,720
other data set that we would bring into

1918
01:07:46,150 --> 01:07:43,920
the table is the ufo and the e.t in

1919
01:07:48,950 --> 01:07:46,160
particular and this species there where

1920
01:07:51,029 --> 01:07:48,960
this reptilian thing kind of reconnects

1921
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:51,039
that doesn't mean that david like has

1922
01:07:56,150 --> 01:07:54,079
done an adequate job of putting all that

1923
01:07:59,349 --> 01:07:56,160
stuff together and it's fair to call him

1924
01:08:01,349 --> 01:07:59,359
on that i'm saying though we have to

1925
01:08:03,670 --> 01:08:01,359
then come back as you do in the book

1926
01:08:05,670 --> 01:08:03,680
over and over again and say

1927
01:08:07,910 --> 01:08:05,680
final analysis

1928
01:08:09,670 --> 01:08:07,920
so if we're going to weigh those two

1929
01:08:12,230 --> 01:08:09,680
david ike steps forward a little bit

1930
01:08:15,510 --> 01:08:12,240
with the shape-shifting alien thing

1931
01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:15,520
being a little bit more right than tom

1932
01:08:20,630 --> 01:08:18,400
wood's complete dismissal of it as oh

1933
01:08:22,309 --> 01:08:20,640
that's just completely wacko

1934
01:08:23,829 --> 01:08:22,319
i'm pretty sure i've heard tom ducey on

1935
01:08:27,189 --> 01:08:23,839
the spiritual dimension of life and is

1936
01:08:28,789 --> 01:08:27,199
and ponder these kind of questions of

1937
01:08:30,870 --> 01:08:28,799
because some is a super critic of the

1938
01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:30,880
state has been super critical of cobit

1939
01:08:35,269 --> 01:08:33,120
policy and has at times gone into

1940
01:08:37,510 --> 01:08:35,279
pondering these questions of

1941
01:08:41,110 --> 01:08:37,520
deeper darker forces behind it

1942
01:08:44,149 --> 01:08:41,120
i think it's a question of focus the tom

1943
01:08:46,550 --> 01:08:44,159
being a historian an economist tends to

1944
01:08:48,630 --> 01:08:46,560
play to his strengths that way and look

1945
01:08:50,870 --> 01:08:48,640
at the world as being a product of the

1946
01:08:52,470 --> 01:08:50,880
structures we set up so if you have a

1947
01:08:54,709 --> 01:08:52,480
central bank you are going to have a

1948
01:08:57,829 --> 01:08:54,719
boom bust cycle that does not require

1949
01:08:59,189 --> 01:08:57,839
malevolent bankers to go

1950
01:09:01,030 --> 01:08:59,199
pull the trigger now and we'll have the

1951
01:09:02,709 --> 01:09:01,040
boss and we'll steal all the money okay

1952
01:09:04,309 --> 01:09:02,719
that might be there as well

1953
01:09:06,070 --> 01:09:04,319
but someone like tom can point out

1954
01:09:07,590 --> 01:09:06,080
because of his knowledge of economics

1955
01:09:08,550 --> 01:09:07,600
you don't need that we also have to

1956
01:09:10,149 --> 01:09:08,560
think about

1957
01:09:11,910 --> 01:09:10,159
these things of products and structures

1958
01:09:13,349 --> 01:09:11,920
so i think people play to their

1959
01:09:14,309 --> 01:09:13,359
strengths in that way

1960
01:09:16,309 --> 01:09:14,319
um

1961
01:09:18,070 --> 01:09:16,319
if i want to be

1962
01:09:19,430 --> 01:09:18,080
argumentative in a way that maybe

1963
01:09:22,709 --> 01:09:19,440
highlights difference in the way we're

1964
01:09:23,669 --> 01:09:22,719
seeing things with regard to the um

1965
01:09:26,149 --> 01:09:23,679
the

1966
01:09:28,229 --> 01:09:26,159
no virus people with covet okay this is

1967
01:09:29,829 --> 01:09:28,239
something i don't take a position on

1968
01:09:30,789 --> 01:09:29,839
right because

1969
01:09:33,269 --> 01:09:30,799
like

1970
01:09:36,550 --> 01:09:33,279
i'm not a science

1971
01:09:38,630 --> 01:09:36,560
podcaster um so that's just not my area

1972
01:09:40,149 --> 01:09:38,640
okay when i do address science i try to

1973
01:09:43,590 --> 01:09:40,159
address in ways where i'm reducing it

1974
01:09:45,269 --> 01:09:43,600
back to pure reason um and also no one's

1975
01:09:47,189 --> 01:09:45,279
gonna care what i think about scientific

1976
01:09:50,309 --> 01:09:47,199
issues right so if i come down on one

1977
01:09:52,070 --> 01:09:50,319
side of that nobody cares about that

1978
01:09:53,590 --> 01:09:52,080
but what i will say is that i think one

1979
01:09:55,350 --> 01:09:53,600
of the most enlightening voices

1980
01:09:58,470 --> 01:09:55,360
throughout the pandemic has been dr sam

1981
01:09:59,830 --> 01:09:58,480
bailey on her odyssey channel and i've

1982
01:10:01,350 --> 01:09:59,840
drawn on a lot of the stuff to

1983
01:10:03,110 --> 01:10:01,360
understand

1984
01:10:04,630 --> 01:10:03,120
where the spike in the death rate comes

1985
01:10:06,550 --> 01:10:04,640
from so irrespective of whether there's

1986
01:10:09,030 --> 01:10:06,560
a virus or not

1987
01:10:12,070 --> 01:10:10,229
it's not necessarily the thing that's

1988
01:10:14,310 --> 01:10:12,080
causing those spikes now when you occupy

1989
01:10:16,630 --> 01:10:14,320
a perspective that says there is no

1990
01:10:18,070 --> 01:10:16,640
virus you are then forced to look for

1991
01:10:20,310 --> 01:10:18,080
other things to account for the very

1992
01:10:22,870 --> 01:10:20,320
real spikes if you don't occupy that

1993
01:10:25,189 --> 01:10:22,880
paradigm then you can attribute it to a

1994
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:25,199
virus so to me it's not surprising that

1995
01:10:28,709 --> 01:10:27,360
the best work on accounting for

1996
01:10:30,310 --> 01:10:28,719
um

1997
01:10:32,870 --> 01:10:30,320
what gives rise to the death spikes

1998
01:10:36,550 --> 01:10:32,880
outside of covid um is someone who

1999
01:10:39,350 --> 01:10:36,560
doesn't believe in in viruses so

2000
01:10:41,350 --> 01:10:39,360
even if she's wrong i don't know if i'd

2001
01:10:43,510 --> 01:10:41,360
wanted a change because that could

2002
01:10:45,270 --> 01:10:43,520
affect the what effect the way he sees

2003
01:10:47,750 --> 01:10:45,280
it it might affect the output of work in

2004
01:10:49,270 --> 01:10:47,760
the same way of david ike even on areas

2005
01:10:51,830 --> 01:10:49,280
where i can see that

2006
01:10:53,590 --> 01:10:51,840
i think dave has gone too far with um

2007
01:10:54,870 --> 01:10:53,600
the prevalence of the rothschild family

2008
01:10:56,550 --> 01:10:54,880
or i think he's gone too far with the

2009
01:10:58,470 --> 01:10:56,560
shape-shifting reptilians

2010
01:10:59,350 --> 01:10:58,480
do i want to change i don't know because

2011
01:11:00,790 --> 01:10:59,360
that

2012
01:11:04,470 --> 01:11:00,800
changes the nature of his work and it

2013
01:11:07,910 --> 01:11:04,480
changes the nature of his impact then so

2014
01:11:09,830 --> 01:11:07,920
i think you need these coexistence of

2015
01:11:11,350 --> 01:11:09,840
positions that are at odds and not

2016
01:11:13,030 --> 01:11:11,360
comfortable each other like on the one

2017
01:11:14,149 --> 01:11:13,040
hand we want to criticize people when we

2018
01:11:15,830 --> 01:11:14,159
think they've gone wrong on the other

2019
01:11:17,189 --> 01:11:15,840
hand them going wrong highlights the

2020
01:11:18,310 --> 01:11:17,199
world in a different way so it's i'm

2021
01:11:19,430 --> 01:11:18,320
just saying i think it's a complex

2022
01:11:20,470 --> 01:11:19,440
picture

2023
01:11:25,910 --> 01:11:20,480
nice

2024
01:11:29,430 --> 01:11:25,920
you know i i just think uh

2025
01:11:32,070 --> 01:11:29,440
struggle only for uh the truth and

2026
01:11:34,229 --> 01:11:32,080
don't prop up anyone who's going about

2027
01:11:37,030 --> 01:11:34,239
it in a roundabout way i think it always

2028
01:11:38,630 --> 01:11:37,040
it always leads the wrong way oh um i

2029
01:11:40,709 --> 01:11:38,640
want to

2030
01:11:42,630 --> 01:11:40,719
wrap this up in the next few minutes i

2031
01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:42,640
want to talk about this last point that

2032
01:11:45,750 --> 01:11:43,840
you brought up

2033
01:11:46,709 --> 01:11:45,760
but i want to leave open the opportunity

2034
01:11:48,630 --> 01:11:46,719
to

2035
01:11:51,189 --> 01:11:48,640
continue this dialogue because this is

2036
01:11:53,990 --> 01:11:51,199
just such a such an important topic in

2037
01:11:55,590 --> 01:11:54,000
my opinion and you just

2038
01:11:57,510 --> 01:11:55,600
you're so uniquely

2039
01:12:00,229 --> 01:11:57,520
qualified and you've done such fantastic

2040
01:12:02,630 --> 01:12:00,239
work in this area i think there's many

2041
01:12:05,030 --> 01:12:02,640
many topics to discuss and what i'd like

2042
01:12:07,110 --> 01:12:05,040
to propose if you're up for it we'll see

2043
01:12:08,790 --> 01:12:07,120
i'm putting you on the spot live

2044
01:12:10,950 --> 01:12:08,800
but i think we can bring other people

2045
01:12:12,470 --> 01:12:10,960
into this conversation in a really

2046
01:12:14,950 --> 01:12:12,480
really interesting way i'd love to get

2047
01:12:16,709 --> 01:12:14,960
tom woods on in a three-way conversation

2048
01:12:18,390 --> 01:12:16,719
i would love to even if you just

2049
01:12:20,149 --> 01:12:18,400
interviewed him and then we could talk

2050
01:12:22,390 --> 01:12:20,159
about it afterwards and stuff like that

2051
01:12:25,030 --> 01:12:22,400
so and and the same with who who's i

2052
01:12:27,910 --> 01:12:25,040
don't know uh sam bailey but same

2053
01:12:28,630 --> 01:12:27,920
absolutely same and talk about it

2054
01:12:30,870 --> 01:12:28,640
so

2055
01:12:33,430 --> 01:12:30,880
let me have a shot at this last point

2056
01:12:35,990 --> 01:12:33,440
that you made and then i want you to

2057
01:12:39,110 --> 01:12:36,000
kind of have a chance to respond so with

2058
01:12:42,070 --> 01:12:39,120
regard to play to our strengths

2059
01:12:44,630 --> 01:12:42,080
so if someone approaches me like dr sam

2060
01:12:45,350 --> 01:12:44,640
bailey i assume she's a doctor right

2061
01:12:48,390 --> 01:12:45,360
yeah

2062
01:12:51,990 --> 01:12:48,400
or andrew kaufman or tom cowan who i had

2063
01:12:53,750 --> 01:12:52,000
on this show and wants to advance this

2064
01:12:56,070 --> 01:12:53,760
there is no virus the virus has never

2065
01:12:57,910 --> 01:12:56,080
been isolated the virus isn't causing

2066
01:12:59,030 --> 01:12:57,920
kovid then

2067
01:13:01,350 --> 01:12:59,040
i would

2068
01:13:03,910 --> 01:13:01,360
give that my best shot in terms of

2069
01:13:05,510 --> 01:13:03,920
saying well how does that fit with the

2070
01:13:07,350 --> 01:13:05,520
fact of

2071
01:13:08,470 --> 01:13:07,360
that we've genetically sequenced the

2072
01:13:10,950 --> 01:13:08,480
virus

2073
01:13:14,390 --> 01:13:10,960
you know it just it doesn't it fails i

2074
01:13:16,630 --> 01:13:14,400
think on so many important ways that i'm

2075
01:13:18,229 --> 01:13:16,640
not with you on

2076
01:13:19,270 --> 01:13:18,239
gee i'm glad you're out there being

2077
01:13:20,229 --> 01:13:19,280
wrong

2078
01:13:22,310 --> 01:13:20,239
no

2079
01:13:24,790 --> 01:13:22,320
i wish you would be out there being

2080
01:13:27,709 --> 01:13:24,800
right so let me turn it around and say

2081
01:13:32,229 --> 01:13:30,470
consequences of not being wrong

2082
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:32,239
okay what the if david i didn't believe

2083
01:13:34,550 --> 01:13:33,600
in the shape-shifting reptilians what

2084
01:13:37,110 --> 01:13:34,560
are the consequences that the

2085
01:13:38,149 --> 01:13:37,120
consequences the world loses this piece

2086
01:13:40,630 --> 01:13:38,159
of

2087
01:13:42,709 --> 01:13:40,640
literature that goes into a literal

2088
01:13:44,070 --> 01:13:42,719
level and i'm just saying i'm not even

2089
01:13:45,430 --> 01:13:44,080
saying it's good i can't sit here and

2090
01:13:46,950 --> 01:13:45,440
say oh i'm really glad that people are

2091
01:13:48,630 --> 01:13:46,960
wrong okay like it'll be much better if

2092
01:13:51,110 --> 01:13:48,640
everyone's right that seems to be true

2093
01:13:52,470 --> 01:13:51,120
but what i am pointing out is that there

2094
01:13:54,149 --> 01:13:52,480
will be consequences to that and those

2095
01:13:55,510 --> 01:13:54,159
consequences wouldn't necessarily all be

2096
01:13:56,870 --> 01:13:55,520
good

2097
01:13:58,790 --> 01:13:56,880
descriptive

2098
01:14:01,510 --> 01:13:58,800
rather than prescriptive

2099
01:14:03,590 --> 01:14:01,520
descriptive we just have to do our best

2100
01:14:06,070 --> 01:14:03,600
job of understanding

2101
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:06,080
what it is rather than prescriptive

2102
01:14:11,990 --> 01:14:08,640
because prescriptive is in the domain

2103
01:14:14,390 --> 01:14:12,000
that you and i care about who am i why

2104
01:14:16,870 --> 01:14:14,400
am i here what is my relationship to

2105
01:14:19,830 --> 01:14:16,880
divinity that is really the only

2106
01:14:22,149 --> 01:14:19,840
question that matters and i think the

2107
01:14:24,709 --> 01:14:22,159
journey that you're taking us on is a

2108
01:14:27,110 --> 01:14:24,719
skeptical inquiry to perpetuate doubt

2109
01:14:29,189 --> 01:14:27,120
journey that leads us back fundamentally

2110
01:14:32,870 --> 01:14:29,199
to spirituality because that's all that

2111
01:14:35,350 --> 01:14:32,880
really matters so in that i don't need

2112
01:14:38,390 --> 01:14:35,360
wrongness i don't need

2113
01:14:41,350 --> 01:14:38,400
cute kind of could be doesn't that you

2114
01:14:42,709 --> 01:14:41,360
know no i just need truth

2115
01:14:44,709 --> 01:14:42,719
i don't know if you can avoid wrongness

2116
01:14:46,709 --> 01:14:44,719
because whatever position we take on an

2117
01:14:48,950 --> 01:14:46,719
issue as complex as what the heck has

2118
01:14:50,630 --> 01:14:48,960
just happened over the past two years

2119
01:14:52,630 --> 01:14:50,640
with covet we're going to have wrongness

2120
01:14:54,550 --> 01:14:52,640
in that so

2121
01:14:57,430 --> 01:14:54,560
you don't have to celebrate it and

2122
01:14:59,510 --> 01:14:57,440
elevate it to some art form it's not

2123
01:15:01,430 --> 01:14:59,520
it's just wrongness

2124
01:15:03,669 --> 01:15:01,440
it's worth what they do like sam bailey

2125
01:15:05,430 --> 01:15:03,679
said doesn't think she's wrong and

2126
01:15:07,590 --> 01:15:05,440
let's give those presentations that yeah

2127
01:15:10,070 --> 01:15:07,600
all right we'll we'll shoot for that

2128
01:15:11,750 --> 01:15:10,080
you're awesome man you can hold your own

2129
01:15:13,510 --> 01:15:11,760
well i like the fundamental division and

2130
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:13,520
this is why i've always liked listening

2131
01:15:17,510 --> 01:15:15,440
to skeptico because

2132
01:15:19,110 --> 01:15:17,520
you interview in a different way

2133
01:15:21,510 --> 01:15:19,120
to me where you

2134
01:15:23,750 --> 01:15:21,520
ask these pointed questions and

2135
01:15:25,030 --> 01:15:23,760
are very devoted to truth in that sense

2136
01:15:26,950 --> 01:15:25,040
and i'm

2137
01:15:28,950 --> 01:15:26,960
much more kind of passive in the way so

2138
01:15:30,149 --> 01:15:28,960
i really like the contrast that arises

2139
01:15:32,229 --> 01:15:30,159
in this dialogue and there's not many

2140
01:15:34,149 --> 01:15:32,239
interviewers who will kind of

2141
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:34,159
go for you that way and say no i don't

2142
01:15:37,990 --> 01:15:35,760
think that's true what about this you

2143
01:15:39,110 --> 01:15:38,000
know so i think it's great okay again

2144
01:15:40,790 --> 01:15:39,120
the book that you're going to want to

2145
01:15:42,630 --> 01:15:40,800
check out and you're going to hear more

2146
01:15:43,430 --> 01:15:42,640
about it on this show so if you feel

2147
01:15:45,830 --> 01:15:43,440
like

2148
01:15:47,750 --> 01:15:45,840
we haven't done enough and we haven't

2149
01:15:49,189 --> 01:15:47,760
because there's like half my notes we

2150
01:15:50,830 --> 01:15:49,199
never even got to

2151
01:15:54,229 --> 01:15:50,840
it's contemplating

2152
01:15:56,229 --> 01:15:54,239
conspiracy it's by richard cox again his

2153
01:15:57,910 --> 01:15:56,239
podcast which is excellent and has a lot

2154
01:16:00,470 --> 01:15:57,920
of this material too

2155
01:16:02,709 --> 01:16:00,480
is deep state consciousness podcast

2156
01:16:04,709 --> 01:16:02,719
richard what else do we want to tell

2157
01:16:07,270 --> 01:16:04,719
people either about the book or other

2158
01:16:08,110 --> 01:16:07,280
stuff that's going on in your world

2159
01:16:09,510 --> 01:16:08,120
yeah so

2160
01:16:11,669 --> 01:16:09,520
deepstateconsciousness.com everything

2161
01:16:14,950 --> 01:16:11,679
that's going on in my world is going on

2162
01:16:16,630 --> 01:16:14,960
there i've produced a book on anarchism

2163
01:16:18,229 --> 01:16:16,640
um that

2164
01:16:19,830 --> 01:16:18,239
alongside it looks at

2165
01:16:22,229 --> 01:16:19,840
those kind of themes i've um i've

2166
01:16:23,350 --> 01:16:22,239
written a paper on consciousness and how

2167
01:16:24,950 --> 01:16:23,360
we understand consciousness which is

2168
01:16:26,149 --> 01:16:24,960
fairly downloadable there that might be

2169
01:16:28,149 --> 01:16:26,159
interesting to a

2170
01:16:29,270 --> 01:16:28,159
um skeptical i'm employing some of these

2171
01:16:31,910 --> 01:16:29,280
themes too

2172
01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:31,920
um and yeah the podcast is continuing to

2173
01:16:36,149 --> 01:16:33,520
go out i'm doing a series on the history

2174
01:16:38,550 --> 01:16:36,159
of u.s imperialism at the moment so just

2175
01:16:40,390 --> 01:16:38,560
on the the 1890s in america through

2176
01:16:42,630 --> 01:16:40,400
theodore roosevelt

2177
01:16:44,950 --> 01:16:42,640
the eagles spreading its wings um over

2178
01:16:46,790 --> 01:16:44,960
out of the united states and beyond and

2179
01:16:48,149 --> 01:16:46,800
and continuing that now through the

2180
01:16:49,030 --> 01:16:48,159
first world war so that's kind of what

2181
01:16:50,550 --> 01:16:49,040
i've got

2182
01:16:52,390 --> 01:16:50,560
going on

2183
01:16:54,870 --> 01:16:52,400
and i'll be on the skeptical forum to

2184
01:16:58,229 --> 01:16:54,880
discuss this in the coming days

2185
01:16:59,910 --> 01:16:58,239
awesome excellent okay folks uh i i hope

2186
01:17:02,870 --> 01:16:59,920
you enjoyed this one

2187
01:17:04,470 --> 01:17:02,880
just a fraction as much as i did because

2188
01:17:06,790 --> 01:17:04,480
then you will have gotten a ton out of

2189
01:17:09,110 --> 01:17:06,800
it richard it's so great to

2190
01:17:11,669 --> 01:17:09,120
reconnect with you and congratulations

2191
01:17:12,790 --> 01:17:11,679
on this terrific work

2192
01:17:14,550 --> 01:17:12,800
thank you

2193
01:17:17,189 --> 01:17:14,560
thanks again to richard cox for joining

2194
01:17:18,709 --> 01:17:17,199
me today on skeptico the one question

2195
01:17:21,189 --> 01:17:18,719
i'd tee up

2196
01:17:23,990 --> 01:17:21,199
is there a link between your spiritual

2197
01:17:25,189 --> 01:17:24,000
journey and the mindset paradigm that

2198
01:17:28,149 --> 01:17:25,199
goes with

2199
01:17:31,110 --> 01:17:28,159
an understanding of analyzing

2200
01:17:32,790 --> 01:17:31,120
modern day conspiracy theory

2201
01:17:35,990 --> 01:17:32,800
let me know your thoughts

2202
01:17:38,390 --> 01:17:36,000
and since richard and i plan on doing

2203
01:17:41,189 --> 01:17:38,400
a couple more in this series

2204
01:17:43,350 --> 01:17:41,199
i'd love to hear your thoughts about

2205
01:17:45,669 --> 01:17:43,360
where we might take it

2206
01:17:46,790 --> 01:17:45,679
so let me hear from you and until next

2207
01:17:50,500 --> 01:17:46,800
time

2208
01:18:04,100 --> 01:17:50,510
take care and bye for now